TJG

Thailaw, on 2010-11-09 09:41:45, said:

You really have absolutely no idea of what happens in the real estate market here, and you give buyers absolutely no credit whatsoever.  The reality is that, as with most property markets, there are lots of overpriced properties for sale, perhaps even more here than in many other markets (as a majority of buyers buy with cash rather than mortgage finance and thus not so many sellers are motivated to reduce their prices in the way they might if they had big mortgages that they couldn't afford).  I often say that perhaps 75% of properties on offer in this market, maybe even more, are not priced to sell.  It is a fact and I wouldn't dispute it for a second.  Moreover, sometimes someone with more money than sense will buy such a property, paying way more than they should for it and thus they will take on a bad investment, which may cause them to lose money in the future.  Exactly the same thing happens in every single property market on the planet, nothing different about Pattaya and Thailand.  BUT, the vast majority of buyers are not as stupid as you seem to believe.  They take their time, they look around the market, they take advice from lots of different people and then once they have a very good idea of what market prices are (not those being asked, but those being achieved), they are in a position to consider making an offer as and when the right property comes up at the right price.  

Whatever you think you know, the fool who pays way too much for a property having failed to look around is the exception (the one-off as you call it).  By far and away the more common scenario is the careful individual who takes his time, does his research and finds the right property at the right price.  I certainly fall into the latter category and judging by all the positive thoughts on property ownership in Thailand by those other property owners who have posted in this thread, it is very clear that most of them do as well.  Have you ever considered that not everyone is as stupid as you obviously think they are?

In terms of the numbers of properties sold in Pattaya, how do you think well over 100 property agents (plus plenty of freelancers) stay in business?  It is far from cheap to operate an office, pay for adverts, pay staff salaries, etc, etc, yet for such a small town many seem to do so even in a relatively quiet market.  I wouldn't say for one minute that there are as many properties being sold as there were a few years ago when the market was absolutely booming, but once again the same is true of lots of property markets all over the World.  I think the truth is that as with many things upon which you claim knowledge, actually you have no appreciation whatsoever as to how many properties are being sold in Pattaya.

Tolley, on 2010-11-05 14:41:57, said:

Incredible.  So where do you get your "real facts" from?  I would really be interested to know.  Because it seems to me that you know very little at all about the real estate market here.  Right now, in most countries around the World real estate is tough.  I watched a show about Las Vegas and the situation there is horrendous.  Prior to the downturn, lots of people were making very good money by investing in real estate in Pattaya, and when the market turns I have no doubt they will again.  Even during the downturn, those who have purchased the right properties at the right price have done absolutely fine.  Those who bought the wrong property at the wrong price have done badly.  Just as they have elsewhere in the World.  

Successful property investment has never been as simple as buying any old property at any old price and making money.  You need knowledge, experience and to exercise a great deal of care.  With that, Pattaya can be (and for many investors has been) a very interesting and rewarding real estate market in which to invest.  And these people are not my next door neighbours, but they most certainly are real.

bubba1, on 2010-11-04 20:42:15, said:

I find it a little ironic that you raise the subject of ignorance.  I have spoken at great length to countless Thai qualified lawyers as to what I can and cannot do vis-a-vis owning land in Thailand.  Please excuse me if I prefer their legal opinions over yours.  As a qualified and experienced lawyer myself (albeit not in Thailand), I feel that I am in a good position to understand properly the advice I have been given.  Moreover, I know several foreign lawyers running the Bangkok offices of large international law firms who own property in Thailand via similar structures to the one used by me.

A lot of non-lawyers seem to believe that the law is black and white.  It is not.  It is countless shades of grey.  One of the reasons why lawyers tend to be so well paid is that they can navigate those shades of grey to achieve objectives quite legally that cannot be achieved in a simple and straightforward manner.  This is exactly what lawyers do, not just here in Thailand, but all around the World and if you think anything else then you are awfully naive (I won't use the word ignorant because I try not to be rude unnecessarily).

bubba1, on 2010-11-04 18:01:58, said:

Quite sure, thanks.  I have a very good understanding of Thai law, unlike most people who comment on it, and understand very clearly what can and cannot be done.

Having read this thread, I find it amazing that there are posters telling individuals who have bought property happily and successfully in Thailand that they must not do it and how stupid it is to do it.  I too own property here and am very happy to do so.  I did my research and bought a good property at a good price, at which it would sell quickly and easily if necessary, even in the current market.  Admittedly, it would be hard to sell for much of a profit right now, because to have good prospects of selling in the current environment it would have to be a very good deal (which it would be at the price at which I bought), but even then I have not paid any rent for the last 4 years and thus am well ahead of the game.  But I have no intention of selling.  If I wanted a new house, I would keep this one and rent it out.  The demand for nice rental properties at the right price in Pattaya is actually strong.  At a sensible rental my house would return me roughly 7% per annum, which is a great deal better than I would get from most other secure investments in the current environment.  If the economy improves, I would anticipate being able to get a higher rent and thus a higher net return.

Nevertheless, like those other posters who have purchased property here, I would not seek to tell those who do not want to do so that they should.  So why are those who don't want to buy property here so aggressive in telling everyone that they must not do so?  How do they know if they haven't done it themselves?  I have done it and, as for many others, it has been a very good experience, so surely I am far more qualified to comment than those who have not done it.  Do some buyers make a mistake and buy a bad property for a bad price?  Of course, but buyers do that everywhere, not just in Thailand.  A bad buy is a bad buy, whether in Thailand or elsewhere.

If you don't want to buy property in Thailand, absolutely fine, and entirely up to you, but please don't tell me and many others who have invested successfully in real estate in Thailand that we have made a mistake.  I know many individuals personally who have made significant amounts of money by buying and selling Thai real estate.  Of course, it is not so easy to make a lot of money right now doing so, but exactly the same can be said about dealing in real estate in many countries around the World, including highly developed countries like the UK.  By the same token, in a poor market such as the one with which we are currently faced, there are some exceptional buying opportunties.  Those individuals who suggest that property prices in Thailand will simply keep falling and falling, frankly that is nonsense.  Firstly, an analysis of real estate prices anywhere in the World shows very clearly that over any extended period property prices rise at a rate greater than inflation over the same extended period.  Secondly, the harsh reality is that the World is short of raw materials so it is inevitable that the prices of these materials will increase significantly over the coming years.  That in itself will drive property prices up quite significantly, irrespective of demand driven inflation, as at the most simple level property prices are derived to an extent from the cost to build new properties.