Bakeman

It's called companionship.......many men ( I would say myself included ) love companionship and the feeling of doing something for the greater good. There are some excellent older fathers all over the world and many excellent relationships too.

So if you you can see past the cynical view and see the reality that relationships can work for older gents then that would be a start. You've given me a chance to tell my favourite story about Thailand, and I can't remember if I have told it before so forgive me if you have seen it before.

My first trip to Thailand was Feb 2008, I had done a business deal and I was taken on holiday to Pattaya as a bonus. I was reluctant to go as I had heard all the usual nonsense about Thailand, but being Scottish I couldn't see the holiday go to waste.

I duly turned up at the hotel opposite Wonderful Bar 2 and you can imagine I was blown away with my first sight of Pattaya. The first afternoon there was live entertainment in the bar, so I wandered across and sat down on one of the stools. There was an older English guy doing his turn, and he had a good voice.

Once he finished he came to over my way and mentioned I had blagged his seat, I skipped up one and he sat with me. He asked me if it was my first time in Thailand, he must have smelled the newness off me. I said it was and to cut a long story short he launched into this story. If he is reading this, I hope he knows the impression he made on me.

" I was 59 and living in London when I lost my wife, I couldn't handle it, I loved that woman so much. For 18 months I was like a zombie, going to work, coming home, drinking by myself every night and just wanting it all to end, I was so miserable. My daughter kept pleading with me to get on with my life, but my life died with my wife. One day my daughter came into the house with my best friend, they had bought me a holiday to Thailand to try and get me out of my shell. I refused to go, no way I could contemplate going on holiday, it would be a betrayal of the memory of my wife, how could I enjoy myself?

My daughter burst into tears, and I relented, I was a miserable sod but now I was hurting my kids too. The day came for me to fly to Thailand and never was there a more reluctant tourist than me, all the way over I didn't want to be going on holiday, I was betraying my wife. I got to Pattaya and I was miserable, angry with myself for agreeing to come and the first day I was a nightmare, by day two I was starting to relax a little bit, and by day three I was starting to enjoy myself.

By the time the two weeks were over I went home and my daughter was ecstatic, she could see happiness in me, as she had already lost her Mum, and she felt she lost her Dad that day too. It was all I could do but get to work, save up and get back out again.

He went on to say.............The first girlfriend you get in Thailand is always the hardest to get rid of, you end up entrapped and unsure and that was a nightmare for me. Eventually it all ended, and I took up with another lady that didn't work out either, and it went on until I met my lady here.

I retired from my job, moved over here and got married, my best pal did the same thing and two other friends have moved here too. We all stay in the same villa, we get up at about 10.00am and go for a swim, the wives make brunch, we sit and eat together, and we all take off in different directions for the afternoon. Today I'm here because I love a sing song, my wife here is a sweetheart ( I would say she was about 54, and the gent I was talking to would be about 67 at the time ), and she looks after me so well.

He went on to say..........

" I would give all this up right now for my wife, I loved that woman so much, I would give up everything to be with her again........I thought my life was over when my wife died, but Thailand has given me a second chance at life............"

I hope that gentleman is still going strong and still loving life in Pattaya, and I bet you there are many men reading this and recognizing a bit of themselves in it........I think that was one of the best phrases I have ever heard in my life.  

" Thailand has given me a second chance at life "

She's going to 'dread' being 'locked' up this time.

I would say that most women look for two things as a rule of thumb, they look for a partner that presses all their buttons, and they look for a partner that will provide security for their ( present or future ) children.

If they can get that magical combination together then they have hit the jackpot. Plenty of women do, there are still many marriages out there that last a lifetime.

pattayadingo has made a very good point in regards to the many people in Thailand that are prepared to live in poverty rather than sell themselves, I would say that the majority of Thai women are of that mind set. If you want proof, it's below your nose in places like Pattaya. For all the ladies that are selling themselves in the bars, there are even more working in 7/11's, hotel receptions etc.

This documentary showed a certain path from single parenthood to Nana Plaza, to me it did it in a way that was non sensationalist. I didn't see anything that I couldn't believe. ( except the Husband of the Year contest ).

I get the idea that the lady who made that journey did so with the best of intentions, to get a new life for her kids, but as soon as she saw the rough reality she hopped on the bus home. Good on her.......

f1 is putting forward the view that women want more from a man than just money or financial security, I agree with that, however sometimes there is a compelling need to put the interest of others first. As far as I'm lead to believe that is quite a prevalent view in Thailand.

Bookman asked me a lot earlier if I had an epiphany watching that documentary, it put me in mind of some of the social history that I have read and some of the people I have spoken to over the course of years.

People will deal with the circumstances as they find them. WW2 is a case in point, it is well documented that the level of acceptance of prostitution and criminality went up during the war, as people in the UK underwent the deprivations of war. Women from respectable backgrounds went on the game as they had to try to provide for their kids, and in their own mind that was the best way of doing it. On top of that the spivs showed up with the knocked off and rarer items, and these same guys who were reviled before the war were sought out. The attitude to criminality underwent a sea change during the war period.  

Right, why am I going back to this? I had a friend who went to his grave guilty about taking advantage of a particular woman during the war. His conscience bothered him up until the day he died in 1989. He was in Germany at the end of the war, and starvation was rife, many people don't realize how starved the German population was. A woman asked him for food for her family, and he prostituted her several times in return. 44 years he lived with that memory, and I bet you it was one of his last thoughts, that's how much it scarred him.

So the answer to bookman is.......the documentary put me in mind of my friend, am I at risk of making the same error? Am I at risk of taking advantage of someone in reduced circumstances? Am I at risk of causing emotional damage to both the lady and myself?

I've always known that there is a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed, I think that documentary showed me more clearly where the line is. I would have to think long and hard about getting involved with a Thai lady again, as I would need to be sure there was some equivalence in the relationship. Setting myself up as being the "prize husband" is not for me, so the documentary did hit home a couple of points to me. It made me think.

ps  Sorry about the rambling post, I can't help myself sometimes.

edit for grammar

Some pretty outmoded views on women here but, shit, look at the demographics of the forum we're posting on.

I think you're both right - most women do want security and, in the modern world, that means readies - pure and simple but, at the same time, there are many who really don't rate the absence of financial security as a dealbreaker . . . even in THIS country.

It's just that men think a greater percentage of women are obsessed with the security that money affords than is actually the case and, consequently, lead with their wallets when they really don't need to.

corruption is the very fabric that keeps thailand together
i like it that my bar pays to the police so it can stay open 24hrs a day
I like being able to pay unrecorded 100  thb traffic fines for my violations without losing my licence or penalty endorsemensts on my licence
i like disputes being settled quickly in the police station rather than the courts (even if farang almost always lose )
if im flying a long flight ,my pharamcy is corrupt enough to sell me valium or xanax without a perscription so i can get a good sleep
sometimes its convenient to drive my motorcycle accross a pedestrian only footpath to get where im going
my rent is cheaper than usual because my landlord says he doesnt pay tax on his properties
i can watch the movies before they are in the cinema because someone is corrupt enough to made dvds somehow and they cost 100 thb
it doesnt help me now im married  but you could  extend your  tourist visa without leaving bkk thanks to corruption in the immigration department
at government buildings if there is hundreds of people in front of you  ,you can skip the queue with the "VIP Service " for 500 thb
many thai people i know are happier to pay to police a small month;y sum to sell their noodles /fruit /sunglasses etc than declare all their income to the revenue and pay proper tax on it


thais can say they dont like corruption ,but most have it in one form or another in their lives and proabably dont even realise it because its integrated into daily life  so seamlessly

You will never stop corruption in Thailand. If you did, the wages would go up to that of western countries, for all employees of all companies and government people. eg The Police would have to be paid about Bt 100,000 a month instead of Bt 9000 a month. Book everyone legally, then there would be no need to take tea money. Put traffic infringement cameras in all traffic lights and on the side of the highways etc.
This would then effect all the industries that deal in Thailand that have their products made here with cheap labour. They would leave for Vietnam or other cheap manufacturing labour countries. So by doing this you would increase the prices of all demestic products, food and the like. I could guarantee, there would be no Falungs living here as they would be in the same boat as they were in their country.
Bottom line, NOT GONNA HAPPEN. to Thailand.

TIT.  I have some educated Thai friends that admit, Thailand will never come out of the third world.  They simply, don't care.  Although we, as foreigners, see fault in how things are run and, as one poster put it, not pro-actively acted upon, the Thai's simply don't work that way.  And let's face it, it's part of what we love about Thailand (and hate).  That mai pen rai laid back attitude makes it a less stressful place....as long as you're not trying to get something done on time or on budget .

jackcorbett, on 2012-03-17 12:19:42, said:

I totally understand your frustration and agree that songkrans are getting more 'aggressive'. IIMHO i think it is a time of year where people just let of steam and usually people get more  worked up over the thought of getting wet, than they should. Put yoru mobile in a plastic bag and just go with the flow. I remember years and years ago returning from work on the bus just as songkran was ending and the folks at the side of the street get everybody in the bus wet as the driver forgot to close the doors as he left. At the time annoyed (but slightly cooler), in retrospect it was a bloody good shot (Thais can chuck water better than Iranians can chuck granades that's for sure) And despite getting a soaking it added some spice to an otherwise dull and boring day.

Get drunk, have some fun and stay safe. Or stay in side and hide. I know what i prefer!

Quote

The above is quoted from a post by "sua yai" on a couple of threads in the teacher's section- I'm replying to it here because that's what this thread is for!

I'll respond to your two points.

1.  This is basically the truth.  A verifiable bachelor's level degree is generally the minimum generally recognized qualification for TEFL teaching in Thailand.  Of course, since this is Thailand, that means there are exceptions- there are schools which will hire you without one, and even sponsor you for a work permit and visa- but the *general* case is that you must have a normal 4 year degree.

The school *can* contact your university directly, if you have signed a release/request form for them to be allowed to access the information- they can't just demand your records.  You should probably call your school and find out what sort of information would be necessary from you on a request form to allow your new would-be employer to request your records successfully.  On the other hand, perhaps you should ask if they would accept a sealed transcript which you could request yourself?  [incidentally, for a real work permit and visa these days the transcript is required along with the degree, so if you're low on these you might want to stock up while you're calling your uni].

2.  This is technically true and has been for some time.  One or two schools actually tried to enforce it a couple years back (by firing anyone without at least a B.ED, for example) and learned to their regret that the market for genuine B.EDs or M.Eds prices them WAY out of the range any TEFL-hiring school could ever afford.  [gentle readers, if you DO have a B.Ed or M.Ed, I envy you!]  That school is now back to hiring folks with genuine degrees who have the closest-to-ideal certs. and stats.

The Ministry has a sort of schizophrenic, bipolar attitude to this point- on PAPER, all of us are supposed to be B.Eds.  but that wouldn't work even in our home countries, so they didn't enforce it.  THEN they tried to say we should all get this "special cultural" course from a few recognized universities/institutions to the tune of 15 credit hours in education classes.  I *do* know one fellow who's had to go this way for his school, but it's not the norm here either and I think they'll be giving up on that, too- demand is just too high and supply is too low.


Your qualifications seem way more than enough for any basic TEFL job, and I would even think you could get some kind of position doing high school social studies classes or perhaps even journalism (in English) at a Thai uni.  The former would pay more money, and the latter would bring more opportunity.

There *is* journalism work available here in English, but it might not be what you're used to- the press is not exactly "free" after all- but it's a non-teaching job, if that's more attractive to you.

Good luck, however it works out!  Let us know!

"Steven"

I say screw the work permit process and give people a green card, if a school wants to hire them and those looking accept whatever it is the school wants to pay them, then great! The "green" card is so they can pay taxes just like any other person living and working here. All this 'us' and "them" is what makes it so difficult. Just have a policy, if the school will hire you then great, pay taxes and live like the rest of the Thai people just as the Thai people do in your country.

I have a doubtless rather skewed view of Thai education. As a university teacher of English in the 1980s at Chula and Mahidol, I was given mostly the medical students to teach, who are usually the most intelligent of all. They were attentive, hard-working and committed, getting good results on carefully monitored tests. That was the cream of the crop at the best Thai universities, and the reason that health care is pretty good in Thailand compared to other countries of similar development level.

As to the general level of education provision in Thailand, it does seem to be dire, although surely not quite as dire as some commenters are saying.

"The mother will return from Russia and be re-united with her daughter"

Was she a mail order bride he got while he lived in America maybe and like many, once they receive their green card they are off looking for better and richer guys? There has been many documentaries about these types of inccedents and I know we are only speculating now but I'm willing to bet he did the right thing weather it is legal or not by fleeing the country with his daughter.

In America the courts pretty much lean towards the mother about 80% of the time in a custody battle in divorce courts and it's about time this changes. I know in Canada over the past 10 - 15 years the courts have been changing and giving the "fathers" a better deal on these matters.

The big shame here now is that because he did this ilegal, he will now most likely end up in jail and the daughter will be ripped from his arms and end up in her mothers arms who she does not really know and most likely end up back in Russia, then eventually in Pattaya. What a life for the poor innocent girl.

Farang in Thailand need to just worry about their own penises and wallets and enjoy the country and stop being angry and bitter and competitive with everyone else. There are plenty of women of all shapes and socio economic backgrounds to go around for all. Furthormore, I believe that love that is true and real creates a respite from death. All cowardice comes from not loving, or not loving well, which is the same thing. And when the man who is brave and true looks death squarely in the face like some rhino hunters I know, or Belmonte, who's truly brave. It is because they love with sufficient passion to push death out of their minds, until the return that it does to all men. And then you must make really good love again. Think about it.

I have stayed in most places around the world good and bad, but the only thing I ever learned was that nowhere has it all. Thailand for me has more overall to offer and the pro's outweigh the cons, if they ever don't I will go home or somewhere else. Of course I have a lot invested here in family / Language etc. and would hate to have to start again somewhere else. One thing though, I do not think I could stay here and feel accepted if I didn't speak the language. Don't know about the OP but I get the feeling a lot of people who drip about being looked upon as outsiders and people who don't fit in don't even speak Thai.

You have a right to your opinion, but your take on Thailand and your experiences are definitely different from mine.
I will admit that after 20 years, the best thing about the country is still the easy access to attractive women and being flirted with constantly by pretty young things who would be horrified by an older fellow back home, but I take issue with your assertions that the cost of living here is not cheap. I am on a real budget right now and easily eat good, tasty, healthy food from restaurants every day for less than 200 baht. That is 6 dollars a day - which would be pretty much impossible in a Western country.
It is easy to find a clean, comfortable air con room with toilet for 5,000 baht in a safe neighborhood. Where can you find something like that for for $160 back home?
I ride a bicycle, so transportation is pretty much free, but a songteaw or even a taxi is not expensive when needed.
To me, it is the people who come here and expect maids and luxurious homes for next to nothing who think it is no longer cheap, but I never had any interest in that kind of lifestyle, so living here is a great deal for the money. If you do not need expensive cars and the newest editions of the latest electronic toys, you can live very well for very little. I will admit that Western food is not nearly as good as back home - I lived in San Francisco so was pretty spoiled - but in restaurants it is mostly less expensive than in a Western city and much better than when I first got here.
As far as the Thai people go, in general, I much prefer to be around them than foreigners. No, they do not all love me, but most are friendly and treat me pleasantly, which is all I need.  
After 20 years, this is home and I want to stay, but IMO it has plenty of attractions for the fresh-off-the-boat newbies who are still coming in droves.