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aanon    5
Talking about Abstract Nouns.

Some use การ others ความ

I tend to use ความ as in ความคิด. if I don't actually know the word and want to change a verb into an abstract noun I will put ความ in front. I seem to get away with it!

Are there any rules to know when to use ความ or การ

just thinking as i type here....i'd be going for การ with most verbs, and i guess ความ goes with adjectives to mean something like "the quality of being x" so for example เท่ (cool, stylish) becomes ความเท่ (coolness, style).

ความคิด - this seems to be a bit different, as kit is a verb....is it just a learned exception? or is ความ here being used to mean the content of thinking, ie. ideas?

การคิด (for "thinking") doesn't sound that wrong to me, but i'm having trouble thinking of an example sentence where ความคิด couldn't be used...

ok, if i was talking about speediness of thinking i might talk about

ความรวดเร็วในการคิด

so, after all that, i'm thinking ความ for adjectives and การ for verbs. but not sure if that covers everything and/or if there are exceptions. anyone?

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loong    1,688

กำลัง gam-lang when added before a verb will be the equivilent of ...ing at the end of an English word.

การ gan when added before a verb changes the verb to a noun, but becomes part of the word.

It also has the meaning of action, task, work, job, activity. And in cases like การคิด actually means "The action of thinking" as far as I know, but does not become part of the word, it retains it's individual word status in my opinion.

I'm going to post this now and add more later as the internet is really playing up today

Edited by loong

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loong    1,688

ข้อ can also be used to change a word to a noun

ข้อคิด kôr kít idea ; consideration point ; thought

ข้อสงสัย kôr sŏng-săi doubt ; suspicion

ข้อเสีย kôr sĭa [ N ] disadvantage ; fault ; defect

And for a giggle using ข้อ and ความ:-

ข้อความ kôr kwaam N ] SMS text message ; statement ; message ; text ; passage ; account ; content

Other ความ prefixes

http://www.thai2english.com/dictionary/5531.html

again more to come as do not trust internet connection

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In the Rai!    2
กำลัง gam-lang when added before a verb will be the equivilent of ...ing at the end of an English word.

การ gan when added before a verb changes the verb to a noun, but becomes part of the word.

It also has the meaning of action, task, work, job, activity. And in cases like การคิด actually means "The action of thinking" as far as I know, but does not become part of the word, it retains it's individual word status in my opinion.

I'm going to post this now and add more later as the internet is really playing up today

agreed Loong!

I like that "the action of thinking"

Yes กำลัง definately adds the ing to a verb. But it is only used when talking about doing the verb now.

For example, it can be used when saying "I am coming home now" but when saying " I am not good at coming home on time" I would use ในเรื่องการ or ในดานการ IMO

I too have only made these assumptions from learning myself and would love to hear from someone who has studied การ and ความ.

Does anyone have any examples of การ used with anything but a verb?

ITR

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aanon    5
Does anyone have any examples of การ used with anything but a verb?

ITR

yes, but it's loong's second usage of การ, namely as "action, task, work, job, activity".

การเมือง politics

การเกษตร agriculture

hey, can any dissect กรรมการ (committee member, umpire) for me? is การ being used in yet another way here? for example, to designate a person, to mean 'official' or something else? i also see นักการ (a clerk? office boy?) here and there, what is an office boy a นัก of?

perhaps they don't bear dissection, but i'd be interested to know what you think. thanks!

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In the Rai!    2
Does anyone have any examples of การ used with anything but a verb?

ITR

yes, but it's loong's second usage of การ, namely as "action, task, work, job, activity".

การเมือง politics

การเกษตร agriculture

hey, can any dissect กรรมการ (committee member, umpire) for me? is การ being used in yet another way here? for example, to designate a person, to mean 'official' or something else? i also see นักการ (a clerk? office boy?) here and there, what is an office boy a นัก of?

perhaps they don't bear dissection, but i'd be interested to know what you think. thanks!

Cheers Aanon,

you know for the life of me I couldnt think of any, but now after your examples there are heaps.

Not sure what you mean by dissect กรรมการ.

Do you want the literal breakdown?

If so การ by itself is "work or job" and กรรม means "doing"

How committee member comes from it, I don't know. I always thought that กรรมการ mean't "committe member" only and than other words stemmed from it.

For example,

referee or umpire is actualy กรรมการตัดสิน

or

The committee is คณะกรรมการ

ITR

Edited by In the Rai!

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In the Rai!    2
so, after all that, i'm thinking ความ for adjectives and การ for verbs. but not sure if that covers everything and/or if there are exceptions. anyone?

ผมไม่เเก่งในเรื่องการกลับบ้านตรงเวลา pom mai gang nai ruang garn glab barn drong welar.

See this is where I am confused because in my example above I would say

"I am not very good at coming home on time" I can not think of how else this sentence could be used as without putting "ing" on the end of the verb.

or here is an example of using การ and ความ in the same sentence.

ผมมีความรับผิดชอบในดานการติดต่อกับ...........

I have the responsibilty in contacting ........

The only rule I know about ความ is that if you use it you must use มี with ความ

as in I have the responsibilty

or you can take มีความ away as in

ผมรับผิดชอบในดานการติดต่อกับ...........

I am responsible for contacting ..........

So whilst ความ adds -ness (nouns from adjectives) like happiness, sadness etc

or -ity (nouns from adjectives) such as probability, possibility etc

or -tion / -sion (nouns from verbs) like admission, information,

or -ance / -ence (nouns from adjectives and verbs) importance, appearance

there are a couple more but I wont go on..

การ just changes it a noun such as this example

ขาดการติดต่อ to lose contact with

It is always like this no "ing" except when either ในดาน or ในเรื่อง

are added before การ I am sure that this is the case.

Please tell me your thoughts.

Cheers ITR

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aanon    5
so, after all that, i'm thinking ความ for adjectives and การ for verbs. but not sure if that covers everything and/or if there are exceptions. anyone?

ผมไม่เเก่งในเรื่องการกลับบ้านตรงเวลา pom mai gang nai ruang garn glab barn drong welar.

See this is where I am confused because in my example above I would say

"I am not very good at coming home on time" I can not think of how else this sentence could be used as without putting "ing" on the end of the verb.

or here is an example of using การ and ความ in the same sentence.

ผมมีความรับผิดชอบในดานการติดต่อกับ...........

I have the responsibilty in contacting ........

The only rule I know about ความ is that if you use it you must use มี with ความ

as in I have the responsibilty

or you can take มีความ away as in

ผมรับผิดชอบในดานการติดต่อกับ...........

I am responsible for contacting ..........

So whilst ความ adds -ness (nouns from adjectives) like happiness, sadness etc

or -ity (nouns from adjectives) such as probability, possibility etc

or -tion / -sion (nouns from verbs) like admission, information,

or -ance / -ence (nouns from adjectives and verbs) importance, appearance

there are a couple more but I wont go on..

การ just changes it a noun such as this example

ขาดการติดต่อ to lose contact with

It is always like this no "ing" except when either ในดาน or ในเรื่อง

are added before การ I am sure that this is the case.

Please tell me your thoughts.

Cheers ITR

hi ITR,

ok, a couple of thoughts in response to your post:

the sentence about coming home on time: i think you're spot on with the translation, 'ing' should be used. i'm not sure why this makes you confused, though. can you explain a bit more?

you said "The only rule I know about ความ is that if you use it you must use มี with ความ

as in I have the responsibilty"

umm, in that example sentence you would use มี but it just depends on what you are actually saying. for example, you don't need มี in the following sentence:

การทอดปลาเป็นความรับผิดชอบของเล็ก

frying (the) fish was lek's responsibility

sorry i also have to disagree with:

"It is always like this no "ing" except when either ในดาน or ในเรื่อง

are added before การ I am sure that this is the case."

ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง (in the area of, on the topic of, and similar) will normally be followed by an abstract noun (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) but, as you can see, these abstract nouns may or may not having 'ing' on the end.

normally, the abstract noun will be translated the same (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) whether or not there is a ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง out the front.

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aanon    5

my apologies to everyone if i am using the term 'abstract noun' incorrectly, i hope you know what i am trying to say, though :o .

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loong    1,688
ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง (in the area of, on the topic of, and similar) will normally be followed by an abstract noun (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) but, as you can see, these abstract nouns may or may not having 'ing' on the end.

normally, the abstract noun will be translated the same (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) whether or not there is a ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง out the front.

Sorry, but I cannot see that dancing, cooking and fishing are abstract nouns - surely they are verbs?

often a verb is changed to an abstracct noun by adding ...ess to the end, although not usually that simple

Happy Happiness

Clean cleanliness

Sad sadness

Blind blindness

etc

Edited by loong

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often a verb is changed to an abstracct noun by adding ...ess to the end, although not usually that simple

Happy Happiness

Clean cleanliness

Sad sadness

Blind blindness

Happy, clean, sad and blind are adjectives... (although clean and blind can be verbs as well, as in "He cleans his room every week." and "She was blinded by the light.")

Dancing, cooking and fishing are called 'gerunds' or 'verbal nouns' in English. While based on verbs, they occupy the same spaces in a sentence as a noun would.

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In the Rai!    2
so, after all that, i'm thinking ความ for adjectives and การ for verbs. but not sure if that covers everything and/or if there are exceptions. anyone?

ผมไม่เเก่งในเรื่องการกลับบ้านตรงเวลา pom mai gang nai ruang garn glab barn drong welar.

See this is where I am confused because in my example above I would say

"I am not very good at coming home on time" I can not think of how else this sentence could be used as without putting "ing" on the end of the verb.

or here is an example of using การ and ความ in the same sentence.

ผมมีความรับผิดชอบในดานการติดต่อกับ...........

I have the responsibilty in contacting ........

The only rule I know about ความ is that if you use it you must use มี with ความ

as in I have the responsibilty

or you can take มีความ away as in

ผมรับผิดชอบในดานการติดต่อกับ...........

I am responsible for contacting ..........

So whilst ความ adds -ness (nouns from adjectives) like happiness, sadness etc

or -ity (nouns from adjectives) such as probability, possibility etc

or -tion / -sion (nouns from verbs) like admission, information,

or -ance / -ence (nouns from adjectives and verbs) importance, appearance

there are a couple more but I wont go on..

การ just changes it a noun such as this example

ขาดการติดต่อ to lose contact with

It is always like this no "ing" except when either ในดาน or ในเรื่อง

are added before การ I am sure that this is the case.

Please tell me your thoughts.

Cheers ITR

hi ITR,

ok, a couple of thoughts in response to your post:

the sentence about coming home on time: i think you're spot on with the translation, 'ing' should be used. i'm not sure why this makes you confused, though. can you explain a bit more?

you said "The only rule I know about ความ is that if you use it you must use มี with ความ

as in I have the responsibilty"

umm, in that example sentence you would use มี but it just depends on what you are actually saying. for example, you don't need มี in the following sentence:

การทอดปลาเป็นความรับผิดชอบของเล็ก

frying (the) fish was lek's responsibility

sorry i also have to disagree with:

"It is always like this no "ing" except when either ในดาน or ในเรื่อง

are added before การ I am sure that this is the case."

ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง (in the area of, on the topic of, and similar) will normally be followed by an abstract noun (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) but, as you can see, these abstract nouns may or may not having 'ing' on the end.

normally, the abstract noun will be translated the same (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) whether or not there is a ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง out the front.

Aanon, thanks for picking that up. I did not explain myself very well there. What I meant to say was that if you use มี you would use ความ and if you dont use มี than there is no need.

Cheers for that.. :o

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In the Rai!    2
ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง (in the area of, on the topic of, and similar) will normally be followed by an abstract noun (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) but, as you can see, these abstract nouns may or may not having 'ing' on the end.

normally, the abstract noun will be translated the same (dancing, design, cooking, music, composition, education, fishing) whether or not there is a ในด้าน or ในเรื่อง out the front.

Whilst I agree with you on ในด้าน (in the area of / in terms of) I would only use this if the sentence started with ในด้าน or ด้าน

For example, ด้านความต้องการมีความรู้ ความเข้าใจเกี่ยวกับการจัดการเรียนการสอน .... etc In terms of having the knowledge and understanding to be oraganised at teaching..... etc

My point is as per my example, both times การ is used I have used them with only verbs and I can only use them in a sentence when I add "ing" to the end of the verb.

I can not see any other time การ can be used unless with a verb.

you cant say การปัญหา you have to use it with a verb like การแก้ไขปัญหา

IMO I think the การ when used in words such as

การเมือง politics

การเกษตร agriculture

isnt the same การ. sure it is the same spelling but it doesnt carry the same meaning or as recently learnt ( อีกนัยยะหนึ่ง), its just a noun (one word) and การ doesnt make it "the task of the city" etc it is just a word (noun) like คน so I dont think the 2 can be compared.

IMO

ITR :o

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I think what you are trying to say ITR, is that การ is not a free morpheme when used combined with nouns, whereas it is a free morpheme when combined with verbs, i.e. you can place it in front of any verb at any time and the result will be a correct word, but you cannot place it in front of any noun and still get a correct new word.

It may have once been a free morpheme judging from การเมือง and การเกษตร, but in present day Thai it is not...

Either way, the best translation of an expression and its form and function in an exclusive source language context can often be different things. A good translation relays the correct ideas and intended message successfully for speakers of the target language; it is not a word-for-word rendering of the source text.

I am speculating, but the fact that we have a word which ends with ร could mean it is a loan word - native Thai words, unless their spelling has been adapted, do not end with ร. Perhaps in the original language (Khmer, Sanskrit?), the word can create new noun + noun combinations as well as noun + verb combinations, but when borrowed into Thai this ability was lost?

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In the Rai!    2
I think what you are trying to say ITR, is that การ is not a free morpheme when used combined with nouns, whereas it is a free morpheme when combined with verbs, i.e. you can place it in front of any verb at any time and the result will be a correct word, but you cannot place it in front of any noun and still get a correct new word.

It may have once been a free morpheme judging from การเมือง and การเกษตร, but in present day Thai it is not...

Either way, the best translation of an expression and its form and function in an exclusive source language context can often be different things. A good translation relays the correct ideas and intended message successfully for speakers of the target language; it is not a word-for-word rendering of the source text.

I am speculating, but the fact that we have a word which ends with ร could mean it is a loan word - native Thai words, unless their spelling has been adapted, do not end with ร. Perhaps in the original language (Khmer, Sanskrit?), the word can create new noun + noun combinations as well as noun + verb combinations, but when borrowed into Thai this ability was lost?

Thanks Meadish. Thats exactly what I was trying to say. Where were you 10 posts ago? :o

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BANGKOK 23 September 2017 02:01
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