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johnray

Another word for ma / very

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On 2/16/2018 at 12:42 PM, tgeezer said:

I think now I see what you mean, If you take a live ending ไหม the reason that many people say ไม้ is, I suppose, because they don’t recognise the live ending without which the fourth tone seems impossible to me. This is the danger of learning ไ ใ as vowels. This can only happen with ย ว  can’t it?  I can see how live endings can be distinguished from dead endings by tone, but I still like to I think that the live and dead endings are shown by the final consonant being voiced.   Perhaps when I know more vocabulary I will know which aspect of a particular word to emphasise. 

it is with mid class initial consonants where I see that lazy endings can’t be tolerated.  กด กบ กก dead words but a hint of voice is needed if you are not looking, กน กง กม must be voiced. Having said that of course how often are these words said as single words ? 

 I will never give up ไหม consciously because it is so ingrained but other words?   

I believe it is just informal spoken Thai, not an error on the part of the speaker. You would sound quite odd if you insisted on pronouncing ไหม with a rising tone in daily conversation.

 

And in your earlier post, I believe you were confused - you said that ด was hard and ต was soft but it's actually the other way around. ด is unaspirated (no puff of breath as you enunciate) whereas ต is aspirated. The position of the tongue is also different for these two consonants. For ด, the tongue touches the roof of the mouth, in roughly the same place as when making the sound for D (perhaps a touch further back) and for ต it is right behind the teeth, touching them (at least that is the only way I can make the correct sound for ต)

 

 

Edited by Mark1066

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8 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

I believe it is just informal spoken Thai, not an error on the part of the speaker. You would sound quite odd if you insisted on pronouncing ไหม with a rising tone in daily conversation.

 

And in your earlier post, I believe you were confused - you said that ด was hard and ต was soft but it's actually the other way around. ด is unaspirated (no puff of breath as you enunciate) whereas ต is aspirated. The position of the tongue is also different for these two consonants. For ด, the tongue touches the roof of the mouth, in roughly the same place as when making the sound for D (perhaps a touch further back) and for ต it is right behind the teeth, touching them (at least that is the only way I can make the correct sound for ต)

 

 

I can't edit this post now but on reflection I would say your tongue has to be under your front teeth rather than behind them, when pronouncing ต, in a similar position to when you are pronouncing the 'th' consonant cluster in English ( but not quite so far forward).

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Thanks for the comment. I wasn’t suggesting a mistake, although I am sure that I probably don’t always say ไหม I am sure that I never say ไม้ . I have never been aware of it but does anyone say มั้ย? When asking “Will/let’s/what about/ with ‘go’? ” ไปไหม with close friends for example, I sound more like “pa ma” with the vowel softened by the suggestion or ย ending.

 

 

 

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light type. If you look at อโฆษะ ถ

 

 

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Sorry I will try again.

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I have read only Thai books on the subject and as I understand it ด is produced by the vocal chords vibrating strongly เสียงก้อง and ต by the vocal chords open ไม่ก้อง ต is additionally described as เสียงเบา .
The best way to learn this is by listening to a teacher of course.
For a little more ‘street cred’ my book also uses more academic terms to describe ต คือ พยัญชนะ อโฆษะ สิถิล whereas ด is given the characteristic of only โฆษะ neither สถิล or ธนิต .
Returning to the accusation that when I say ฝนตก ต เตา is wrong I think that it must be that I was not being careful enough, saying เอาะ instead of โอะ as I said earlier. I corrected this by closing the syllable with rounded lips.


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BANGKOK 21 July 2018 13:08
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