Jump to content
4MyEgo

LED downlights and Insulation question

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Hi Guys

 

Just about to put in SCG Stay Cool insulation in the ceiling after a fair bit of research, and hope that it will reduce the heat coming in throughout the day, well that's the plan.

 

I have about 35 LED panel lights (I believe you call them downlights with those little transformers attached to them ?)

 

They are throughout the place as can be seen at the (right side of picture attached in the box and other photos outside the box), now as far as I can tell, they are not IC rated, so I figure unless I cut away about 3" from every downlight, it won't be safe to lay the insulation over the downlights, that said, some people have said they are fine to put the insulation with foil over, as the SCG insulation is a non combustible material, personally, I am a little suspect on that so looking for advice, hence the post.

 

A) Is it best practice to remove the downlights and replace them with IC rated downlights so as to be able to avoid cutting 3" away from every downlight, and just lay the insulation straight over them ?

 

or

 

B) Disconnect all current downlights, and replace some in areas with ceiling lights (15 of them) as seen pictured on the left, and leave the downlights in their current positions so as to avoid filling in the holes.

 

With regard to the ceiling lights, we have them in 4 other rooms and they light the rooms up just as good as the 2 downlights in other rooms.

 

The outlay for the 15 replacement lights would be about 7,500 baht as opposed to, I am guessing about double that for 35 IC rated downlights, either way, I am not fussed, just looking for the safest way.

 

C) The LED panel lights to the right of the picture are not downlights and are safe to use ?

 

As you can see, I am no sparky and am fairly new to the LED world of lighting.

 

If you answer A, and know of any places that stock IC rated downlights, please do let me know.

 

 

IMG_6545.JPG

IMG_6547.JPG

IMG_6548.JPG

Edited by 4MyEgo
Attached some more photos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice lights. I think advice will vary, but looking at the SCG web site they say to leave the 3" gap around the light, but the SCG diagram doesn't look like they are using LED lights. Think I would leave the gap.

 

Another thing: recently stayed in a condo and replaced some faulty downlights. One of the lights still didn't work and the maintenance guy said it was the transformer which was a pain to get to. Maybe leave enough cable length so you can easily replace a transformer if needed.

 

 

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no danger of fire, but the LEDs and their driver won't like being covered in insulation, premature death being the result.

 

I would make some simple wood or aluminium "bridges" to keep the insulation off the lights and transformers, easy and cheap.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Crossy said:

There's no danger of fire, but the LEDs and their driver won't like being covered in insulation, premature death being the result.

 

I would make some simple wood or aluminium "bridges" to keep the insulation off the lights and transformers, easy and cheap.

 

Yes I thought that might be the case thanks.

 

The more I look into this I have found that I have two options, 1 as you suggest, makes some simple wood or aluminium bridges, or 

 

purchase some covers which I have found on the net, but they are not cheap when weighin up the cost of replacing the lights to IC rated lights which can be covered, or 

 

purchase the IC downlights if I can find them.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, carlyai said:

Nice lights. I think advice will vary, but looking at the SCG web site they say to leave the 3" gap around the light, but the SCG diagram doesn't look like they are using LED lights. Think I would leave the gap.

 

Another thing: recently stayed in a condo and replaced some faulty downlights. One of the lights still didn't work and the maintenance guy said it was the transformer which was a pain to get to. Maybe leave enough cable length so you can easily replace a transformer if needed.

 

 

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

The problem with the 3" gap is when you multiply that x 35 downlights, it really defeats the purpose IMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to dampen your spirit, but previously there was a huge discussion on roof insulation, when Cheryl built her new roof.

One of the things I took away from that discussion was that roof insulation will eventually be overcome by heat. So you have your outer roof tiles or metal, that acts as a barrier to the heat and eventually the heat gets thru to the under roof insulation, which is eventually overcome, then the cooling draft flowing thru the ceiling, then to the ceiling insulation. Eventually the barriers are overcome. Insulating the ceiling is good, but, at the end of the day, the difference in room temperature between making the downlight cutouts and not may be minimal if you don't have the other barriers.

Anyway, Crossy's suggestion about the bridges makes sense.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, carlyai said:

I don't want to dampen your spirit, but previously there was a huge discussion on roof insulation, when Cheryl built her new roof.

One of the things I took away from that discussion was that roof insulation will eventually be overcome by heat. So you have your outer roof tiles or metal, that acts as a barrier to the heat and eventually the heat gets thru to the under roof insulation, which is eventually overcome, then the cooling draft flowing thru the ceiling, then to the ceiling insulation. Eventually the barriers are overcome. Insulating the ceiling is good, but, at the end of the day, the difference in room temperature between making the downlight cutouts and not may be minimal if you don't have the other barriers.

Anyway, Crossy's suggestion about the bridges makes sense.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

Appreciate your input.

 

I do have thermal reflect insulation under the concrete roof tiles, whirlybirds (spinners), eave vents, and gable vents so there is good airflow, just wanting to make the insulation as tight as possible, that said, agree that Crossy's suggestion is the way to go.

 

I will try and hunt down Sheryl's previous post on roof insulation.

 

Thanks   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Appreciate your input.
 
I do have thermal reflect insulation under the concrete roof tiles, whirlybirds (spinners), eave vents, and gable vents so there is good airflow, just wanting to make the insulation as tight as possible, that said, agree that Crossy's suggestion is the way to go.
 
I will try and hunt down Sheryl's previous post on roof insulation.
 
Thanks   
Sounds like you've got the best set up.

In that Cheryl discussion, one of the knowledgeable contributers said that the most critical area is that 1 foot air space above the ceiling (I hope I have remembered correctly). So this ceiling insulation installation may well be the last heat barrier that defeats the heat penetration.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, carlyai said:

Sounds like you've got the best set up.

In that Cheryl discussion, one of the knowledgeable contributers said that the most critical area is that 1 foot air space above the ceiling (I hope I have remembered correctly). So this ceiling insulation installation may well be the last heat barrier that defeats the heat penetration.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

100% correct, now at the front line, its either allow the heat in through the ceiling via small areas of the insulation that has been cut away from the lights, i.e. 3", or put on LED panel light covers/hoods/boxes, call them what you like, or replace half of them with conventional LED ceiling lights (not recessed) and roll out the insulation (uncut), which is what I am more leaning to as the cost for the covers/hoods/boxes will outweigh the cost for the new lights. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you just get some aluminum pie plates and turn them upside down over the lights? Sometimes called disposable aluminum foil pans.

 

th?id=OIP.pIf0liUezXnDxYrR5_cIXQHaEn&w=2th?id=OIP.qhK4_TrYZmcLc4clOEi61wHaE8&w=2

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jerry921 said:

Can you just get some aluminum pie plates and turn them upside down over the lights? Sometimes called disposable aluminum foil pans.

 

th?id=OIP.pIf0liUezXnDxYrR5_cIXQHaEn&w=2th?id=OIP.qhK4_TrYZmcLc4clOEi61wHaE8&w=2

 

 

I love it 555, perhaps one that is a little wider and deeper, but then what about the transformer or the little electrical thingnimajig that's attached to the LED light, would that be ok on its own on the other side of the foil, or should we leave it under the aluminium, I mean we don't want to spoil the pie do we ?

Related imageRelated image

 

Edited by 4MyEgo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is actually called a driver and it is the part most likely to be damaged by excessive amounts of heat, it is also the item that can be difficult to replace even though they are very cheap.

 

I have just had to buy replacement lights for that reason.

 

 

Yes, I know what you mean, I just replaced the LED downlight in the picture in #1 on the left, the light itself was gone, and you cannot buy them separate, its 500 baht for the light and the driver, so I have another spare driver that will come in handy down the track.

 

I have also had the same problem with the small LED panel lights, in the picture in #1 its on the right, and I have 35 of them, although have only had to replace one, it cost 230 baht, I keep the driver or light as spare, depending on what was replaced, was the driver on this ocassion.

 

Having weighed everything up, I believe the LED downlight as shown on the left in the picture in #1 are the way to go, 15 x 500 baht each, and as they are under the ceiling, the driver and light will not be in the way of the insulation as the driver remains within the light, that said, I will have 20 downlights sitting in the ceiling, disconnected, so might look a little strange, but I can live with that, as I am wanting to maximise the coverage of the insulation, without having to spend bigger bucks to cover the panel lights within the ceiling with CI downlights if they exist here. 

Edited by 4MyEgo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I will have 20 downlights sitting in the ceiling, disconnected, so might look a little strange, but I can live with that,

As discussed in your other thread just put something (the pie dish is a good idea) over the top of the lights and just use them until/if they die.

 

Your insulation will not be inflammable. If you are worried about that take a blow torch to a piece of it. If it does burn then DO NOT USE IT EVER. You have a much greater chance of a bad electrical connection causing a fire than an LED driver.

 

Insulation in a ceiling must never be inflammable. Cheap PU foam can be expanded polystyrene usually is unless specifically designed to be self extinguishing.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

As discussed in your other thread just put something (the pie dish is a good idea) over the top of the lights and just use them until/if they die.

 

Your insulation will not be inflammable. If you are worried about that take a blow torch to a piece of it. If it does burn then DO NOT USE IT EVER. You have a much greater chance of a bad electrical connection causing a fire than an LED driver.

 

Insulation in a ceiling must never be inflammable. Cheap PU foam can be expanded polystyrene usually is unless specifically designed to be self extinguishing.

The insulation is non combustible which is good, so the pie dishes over the light, not the driver is the way to go you reckon until they die ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

BANGKOK 22 August 2018 00:30
Sponsors
×