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BANGKOK 15 November 2018 15:27
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Spee

Days Of The Week

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Help please from the experts .....

I have the days of the week down pat as far as speaking goes. But a few things are still unanswered in my mind.

Monday – วันจันทร์ - /m/wan /m/jan

Tuesday – วันอังดาร - /m/wan /m/ang /m/kahn

Wednesday – วันพุธ - /m/wan /h/put

Thursday – วันพฤหัสบดื - /m/wan /h/pa /h/reu /l/hat /l/sa /m/bor /m/dee

Friday – วันศุกร์ - /m/wan /l/suk

Saturday – วันเสาร์ - /m/wan /r/sao

Sunday – วันเอาทิตย์ - /m/wan /m/ah /h/tit

But there are a few things that I don't understand yet.

- Monday, Friday and Saturday have the ร์ character at the end. What is it called and what does it mean?

- Sunday has the ย์ character at the end. What is it called and what does it mean?

- With Thursday, I'm used to using the shortened form. Is the "/l/sa /m/bor /m/dee" part on the end a more formal way of saying it? Is it not normally used in regular conversation?

TIA for any replies ...

Cheers,

Spee สพี

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They are unpronounced letters left over from the original Sanskrit origins.

The Symbol above the unpronounced letter ​์ is called 'Garun' which indicates an unpronounced letter and is often a good indicator of a word of foreign origin.

Thursday is simply Wan Paruhat.

Hope thats nice and simple before the heavy guns com in blazing at each other!

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No heavy gun here, Professor...in fact, the amount of spelling errors I've been making lately I'm probably a BB Gun!

But anyhow, we had a discussion re the garran the other day.  My Becker Dictionary spells it "gaa-ran" ์.

Okay ... I get the gaa-ran bit ... thanks. I'm still curious about why the "r" and "y" characters are there in the first place. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

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No heavy gun here, Professor...in fact, the amount of spelling errors I've been making lately I'm probably a BB Gun!

But anyhow, we had a discussion re the garran the other day.  My Becker Dictionary spells it "gaa-ran" ์.

Okay ... I get the gaa-ran bit ... thanks. I'm still curious about why the "r" and "y" characters are there in the first place. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

ไม่เข้าใจ Spee. We'll have to wait for one of the "heavy hitters" to weigh in! :o

บุญมี

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Garunee!? <deleted>!! Corrected! Cheers Boon Mee.

Spee,

As I said, they are merely remanants of the original Sanskrit spelling. which would have been pronounced at one point in history but the pronunciation has been dropped over time, yet been retained in the spelling.

Quite why they've remained is anyones guess.

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Help please from the experts .....

I have the days of the week down pat as far as speaking goes. But a few things are still unanswered in my mind.

Monday – วันจันทร์ - /m/wan /m/jan

Tuesday – วันอังดาร - /m/wan /m/ang /m/kahn

Wednesday – วันพุธ - /m/wan /h/put

Thursday – วันพฤหัสบดื - /m/wan /h/pa /h/reu /l/hat /l/sa /m/bor /m/dee

Friday – วันศุกร์ - /m/wan /l/suk

Saturday – วันเสาร์ - /m/wan /r/sao

Sunday – วันเอาทิตย์ - /m/wan /m/ah /h/tit

But there are a few things that I don't understand yet.

- Monday, Friday and Saturday have the ร์ character at the end. What is it called and what does it mean?

- Sunday has the ย์ character at the end. What is it called and what does it mean?

- With Thursday, I'm used to using the shortened form. Is the "/l/sa /m/bor /m/dee" part on the end a more formal way of saying it? Is it not normally used in regular conversation?

TIA for any replies ...

Cheers,

Spee สพี

But there are a few things that I don't understand yet.
Sunday – วันเอาทิตย์ - /m/wan /m/ah /h/tit
- Sunday has the ย์ character at the end. What is it called and what does it mean?

The words with the "gahrun" mark(mai tun-ta-kaat) are shortened forms of longer words which are often of foreign origin.

Let's look at Sunday as an example. :D

Sunday-วันอาทิตย์ 'wun aa-tit'/อาทิตย์ 'aa-tit'_อาทิตย 'aa-tit-dta-ya'_อาทิตยวาร 'aa-tit-dta-ya waan" :o

The word อาทิตย์ 'aa-tit' ,which is also found in the Thai words for "sun" and "week" ,comes from the name of the goddess สูรยาทิตย์ 'suh-ri-yaa-tit',whose full name is even longer.

In ancient mythology, สูรยาทิตย์ 'suh-ri-yaa-tit' shows herself to us as our sun.

She is one goddess in a group of others which also includes "Indra".

The original meaning seems to be เชื้ออาทิตย์ 'cheu-a aa-tit' =decendants of สูรยาทิตย์'suh-ri-yaa-tit',the goddess. :D

Apart from the 'aa-tit'part in her name,the rest of it also means sun and are found in these words...

1.สุรีย์ "suh-ree"

2.สุรียา "suh-ree yaa"

3.สุรียน (Tamil) "suh-ree yon"

4.สุรียัน (Tamil) "suh-ree yan"

Hope this helps a bit? :D

Cheers,

Snowleopard.

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The silent Sanskrit consonants are sometimes re-used in certain cases. Take for example the word สัตว์ (sud: animal) which has a silent w at the end. Once you use it in สัตวแพทย์ (sud ta wa pat: veterninarian) the garun is removed, and the w (wa) sound is used again.

The garun is also used in words taken from English, since Thais can't pronounce some sounds, such as the trailing "s" sound. Example: "bar" is spelled "บาร์" and pronounced bah.

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A good indicator of non Thai words in use in the Thai language come from seeing the 'Garun'

Look at Thai names. Many Thai names have a 'Garun' because they are Sanskrit in origin.

Also look at English words used in common Thai. Many of those have a 'Garun' knocking about too.

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No heavy gun here, Professor...in fact, the amount of spelling errors I've been making lately I'm probably a BB Gun!

But anyhow, we had a discussion re the garran the other day.  My Becker Dictionary spells it "gaa-ran" ์.

Okay ... I get the gaa-ran bit ... thanks. I'm still curious about why the "r" and "y" characters are there in the first place. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

This may be the wrong forum ( Cybalist would be a better place) to answer the question about the meaning but the final -r- is an Indo-European adjective suffix in two cases.

จันทร์ 'moon' and ศุกร์ 'Venus' both come from roots with a meaning 'glow' - see *kand and *k^euk.

I think อาทิตย์ comes from Proto-Indo-European *dei 'to shine; day; sun; God', but I couldn't spot any citation in the link I gave. I shall enquire further. I believe the -y- here is also an Indo-European adjective suffix, but I could be wrong.

Curiously, Sanskrit saura 'Saturn' also means 'to do with the sun'. If this is not a coincidence, the -r- is part of the stem, and corresponds to -l- in English solar (from Latin) and heliocentric (from Greek). Snowleopard has already given more immediate Sanskrit connections.

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Sunday comes from aditya, a Skrt word for "sun" or "of the sun".

Monday < chandra, 'moon'

Tuesday < anggara 'mars'

Wednesday < budha 'mercury'

Thursday < brhaspati 'jupiter'

Friday < shukra 'venus'

Saturday < saura (son of the sun god, ie, saturn)**

Sunday < aditya 'sun'

Skrt for Tuesday is always mangalvaar and the more typical Skrt (and Pali, Prakrit, Hindi) term for Mars is mangala. So you would expect the Thai to be wan mongkhon rather than wan angkhaan. I finally found a couple of references in Monier Monier that explain the Thai:

aGgAra

m. (rarely) n. ( %{ag} or %{aGg} Un2. cf. %{agni}) , charcoal , either heated or not heated ; m. the planet Mars ; N. of a prince of the Maruts Hariv. ; the plant Hita1vali1 ; (%{As}) m. pl.N. of a people and country VP. [cf. Lith. {angli-s} ; Russ. {u1golj} ; also Germ. {Kohle} ; Old Germ. {col} and {colo} ; Eng. {coal}].

aGgArakadina

m. n. a festival of Mars on the fourteenth of the latter half of Caitra

So it's a rare Skrt word for Mars. In more 'normal' translit, that would be anggara, in Thai --> angkhaan. [The G presents nasal ending on the 1st syllable, while the A denotes long /a/.]

The Skrt for Saturn is shani, and the Skrt/Pali for Saturday is thus shanivaar. So you would expect a Thai equivalent for shani here (e.g., wan san or wan sani). I was puzzled as to why we get another sun derivation (saura) for Saturday when Sunday already is associated with 'sun' via aditya.

But a search of M-M yields:

sUryasuta

m. `" son of the Sun "'N. of the planet Saturn Var. ; of the monkey Su-gri1va Ka1m.

sUryanandana

m. `" son of the Sun "'N. of the planet Saturn Ha1yan.

saurika

1 mfn. (for 2. see p. 1255 , col. 1) heavenly , celestial W. ; m. the planet Saturn MW. ; heaven , paradise L.

[sUrya = saura in more 'normal' translits]

Hence this is a reference to Saturn (son of the sun) after all.

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Sunday comes from aditya, a Skrt word for "sun" or "of the sun".

My suggested derivation of Aditya from PIE *dei has been torn to shreds in response to my question at Etymology of Sanskrit a:ditya 'sun'. Inconveniently, you have to join that Yahoo group to read the replies, so I will present the chief points below. For clarity, I will write the long vowels double.

  • Aaditya means son of Aditii, mother of the gods. This 'patronymic' is formed by adding the suffix 'ya', dropping the final vowel of Aditii, and changing the first vowel of the word to long grade (vrddhi).
  • And of course the gloss 'sun' in Richard's posting is hardly precise, Surya being only one of the Adityas, and Varun.a being originally the chief one.
  • Another reply remarksone might add that aditi- is interpreted as a-di-ti- by Mayrhofer (and probably others), the a- being the negative prefix, the -ti- the suffix forming abstract nouns from roots, and the -di- the zero grade of the root da: "bind" (PIE *deh1), thus aditi- the personification of un-bounded-ness. No relation to the word for "day".

If -ya- is indeed present as a suffix, I am correct about its origin. I still need to check on this, though. Contrast the derivation of saura, where there is no -y-.

[sUrya = saura in more 'normal' translits]

No. The 'normal', ambiguous transliteration of sUrya would simply be surya. saura is basically the adjective derived from one of the cluster of words for 'sun' - suvar (weak stem sur-), suura, suurya - by the simple process of vrddhi.

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