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Boon Mee

"ought" & "must"

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Thanks RC...I see Snowleopard "lurking" the thread.  Perhaps he can shed more light?

sabaijai Posted Today, 2004-11-29 13:14:49

  must = ต้อง

ought to = น่าจะ

should = ควรจะ

Hi folks,

You're right BoonMee.I was lurking around a bit before but I had a hangover from yesterday's binge so I went back to bed! :D

Sabaijai's post was informative and I'll try to provide some more info about "MUST"...

First we should remember that both English and Thai are separate languages,which exist on their own,and both are comprehensible to mono-lingual speakers of either language without being translated back and forth.

The English "must"/"have to" can be served by several different words in Thai,depending on the necessity. :D

Here are some of those Thai words with examples... :o

1.ต้อง "dtorng" (not so strong expression with must)

เขามีการบ้านต้องทำ "kaow mee gaan baan dtorng tum"=He's got some homework he must do.

2.จำเป็นต้อง "jum-bpen dtorng"(more emphatic expression with must)

เขาจำเป็นต้องขออนุญาตครูก่อน "kaow jum-bpen dtorng ano-yaat kroo gorn"=He must ask permission from his teacher first.

3.จำเป็น "jum-bpen"(When "jum-bpen" is at the end of the sentence,"dtorng" is not necessary)

ผมไม่ชอบฆ่าคนถ้าไม่จำเป็นจริง ๆ "pom mai chop kaa kon taa mai jum-bpen jing jing"=I don't like killing people unless I must do it.

4.คง "kong"(sometimes translated as may_sometimes as must)

ผมคงทำลูกกุญแจหล่นหายไปแล้วแน่ ๆ "pom kong tum luhk-kohn-jae lon haai bpai nae nae"=I must have lost my key.

5.จง "jong"

จงระวังตัวให้ดี "jong ra-wang dto-a hai dee"=You must take good care of yourself.

6.จำต้อง "jum-dtorng"

คืนนี้ฝนตกหนักมาก การขับรถอาจมีอันตราย ดังนั้น เราจำต้องค้างที่นี่อีกหนึ่งคืน "keun nee fon dtok nuk maak,gaan cup rot aat mee ahnta-raai, dung nun raow jum-dtorng kaang tee nee eek neung keun"=It's raining so heavily tonight that driving might be hazardous;therefore,we must lodge here for another night.

Negatives..."Must not" vs. "Don't have to"... :D

7.ห้าม "haam"(must not)

ห้ามไปที่นั่นเพราะว่ามีอันตราย "haam bpai tee nan pro-waa mee ahnta-raai"=You must not go there because it is dangerous.

8.ไม่ต้องก็ได้ "mai dtorng goh dai"(don't have to)

ไม่ต้องไปที่นั่นก็ได้นเพราะว่ามันไม่สนุกเลย "mai dtorng pai tee nan goh dai pro-waa mai sanohk ley"=You don't have to go there cuz it ain't no fun.

Hope this is useful. :D

Cheers,

Snowleopard.

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....Snowleopard, bannork, sabajai, firefoxx, RDN are the Big Guns around here and I simply saw one of 'em lurking...

BTW - "kuan" ควร is "should" in my dictionary.

Please! I am so embarrassed :o . No, really, I am definitely not a "big gun" - I just use the Lexitron a lot ( http://lexitron.nectec.or.th ) and am quick on the keyboard :D .

The current real "big guns" (in alphabetical order) are:

bannork

Firefoxx

meadish_sweetball

Richard W

sabaijai

Snowleopard

(and probably alleypanda - but I've only noticed him write in Thai :D)

And we haven't heard much from Edward B recently.

Apologies to any 'big guns' left off the list. :D

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....Snowleopard, bannork, sabajai, firefoxx, RDN are the Big Guns around here and I simply saw one of 'em lurking...

BTW - "kuan" ควร is "should" in my dictionary.

Please! I am so embarrassed :o . No, really, I am definitely not a "big gun" - I just use the Lexitron a lot ( http://lexitron.nectec.or.th ) and am quick on the keyboard :D .

The current real "big guns" (in alphabetical order) are:

bannork

Firefoxx

meadish_sweetball

Richard W

sabaijai

Snowleopard

(and probably alleypanda - but I've only noticed him write in Thai :D)

And we haven't heard much from Edward B recently.

Apologies to any 'big guns' left off the list. :D

Jeeez...I forgot Alleypanda too.

Sorry, Khun Panda... :D

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....Snowleopard, bannork, sabajai, firefoxx, RDN are the Big Guns around here and I simply saw one of 'em lurking...

BTW - "kuan" ควร is "should" in my dictionary.

Please! I am so embarrassed :D . No, really, I am definitely not a "big gun" - I just use the Lexitron a lot ( http://lexitron.nectec.or.th ) and am quick on the keyboard :D .

The current real "big guns" (in alphabetical order) are:

bannork

Firefoxx

meadish_sweetball

Richard W

sabaijai

Snowleopard

(and probably alleypanda - but I've only noticed him write in Thai :D)

And we haven't heard much from Edward B recently.

Apologies to any 'big guns' left off the list. :D

Jeeez...I forgot Alleypanda too.

Sorry, Khun Panda... :D

Thanks to all for another interesting and educational thread.

Spee

... a BB pistol among Colt 45's ... :o

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To echo Spee - everyone's help is very much appreciated. Thanks Snowleopard for further illumination into the usage(s) of "dtorng".

Would like to add that I consider the "big guns":

*bannork

*Firefoxx

*meadish_sweetball

*Richard W

*sabaijai

*Snowleopard & Alleypanda light years in advance of my feeble efforts but if I can pass the P6 exam in a few years, I'll be happy! :o

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And we haven't heard much from Edward B recently.

Apologies to any 'big guns' left off the list. :o

Been busy as a beaver in a dam building contest. I promise to check back here more often.

talking about 'have to', as opposed to'must', in the negative form perplexes me in Thai, because if we say in English,''you don't have to come'', it still leaves the choice open of coming, it's rather mild;but when I hear a Thai using ไม่ตัอง the tone is often a lot sharper, more like 'don't!' Anyone else had the same experience?

bannork.

ํI know what you mean. When I came to Thailand after my first year of Thai studies in Sweden, I stayed at a guest house. The fan in my room was broken, and I told the staff at the reception. One of the male staff went by me and asked to reconfirm if the fan was broken, and I meant to tell him it was, but that he did not have to fix it right away since I was on my way out for the day anyway. For this, I used the construction

"ไม่ต้องซ่อมเดี๋ยวนี้ครับ " "mai tawng sawm diaownii khrap" which he clearly took to mean as an order NOT to repair it.

In hindsight, I think

"ยังไมจำเป็นต้องซ่อม" "yang mai jam pen tawng sawm" instead would have worked better... but somebody else might have an even more elegant solution for this (apart from not using ต้อง at all which is the easiest way out).

How about "ไม่ต้องรีบก็ได้ครับ" (No [need to] rush!)

It's a very common expression (in both languages).

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Just a couple clarifications.

2.จำเป็นต้อง "jum-bpen dtorng"(more emphatic expression with must)

เขาจำเป็นต้องขออนุญาตครูก่อน "kaow jum-bpen dtorng ano-yaat kroo gorn"=He must ask permission from his teacher first.

More commonly (and correctly) with จะ as จำเป็นจะต้อง. Colloquially จะ may sometimes be omitted, but not by educated speakers. Or at least that's my impression.
4.คง "kong"(sometimes translated as may_sometimes as must)

ผมคงทำลูกกุญแจหล่นหายไปแล้วแน่ ๆ "pom kong tum luhk-kohn-jae lon haai bpai nae nae"=I must have lost my key.

Its literal meaning is 'sure, solid, stable,' etc, and when used as a modal (i.e., in conjuction with a verb), คง (or its full form, คงจะ) is thus more commonly translated as 'probably' rather than either 'may' (not strong enough) or 'must have' (too strong).

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Just a couple clarifications.
2.จำเป็นต้อง "jum-bpen dtorng"(more emphatic expression with must)

เขาจำเป็นต้องขออนุญาตครูก่อน "kaow jum-bpen dtorng ano-yaat kroo gorn"=He must ask permission from his teacher first.

More commonly (and correctly) with จะ as จำเป็นจะต้อง. Colloquially จะ may sometimes be omitted, but not by educated speakers. Or at least that's my impression.

4.คง "kong"(sometimes translated as may_sometimes as must)

ผมคงทำลูกกุญแจหล่นหายไปแล้วแน่ ๆ "pom kong tum luhk-kohn-jae lon haai bpai nae nae"=I must have lost my key.

Its literal meaning is 'sure, solid, stable,' etc, and when used as a modal (i.e., in conjuction with a verb), คง (or its full form, คงจะ) is thus more commonly translated as 'probably' rather than either 'may' (not strong enough) or 'must have' (too strong).

More commonly (and correctly) with จะ as จำเป็นจะต้อง.
I think you're wrong in your assertions about both "commonly"and "correctly". :o

จำเป็นต้อง "jum-bpen dtorng"is more commonly used than จำเป็นจะต้อง "jum-bpen ja dtorng";but both of them are correct.

In my sentence,the meaning is more direct and stronger without "ja" so I think it's the better choice. :D

Colloquially จะ may sometimes be omitted, but not by educated speakers. Or at least that's my impression.

Wrong impression... :D

and,it's definitely better to know some Thai than to only know some Thais. :D

  คง= 'may' (not strong enough) or 'must have' (too strong).

If you consider แน่ ๆ "nae nae" at the end,I'd still say that "must have" is the best translation of my Thai sentence. :D

ผมคงทำลูกกุญแจหล่นหายไปแล้วแน่ ๆ "pom kong tum luhk-kohn-jae lon haai bpai nae nae"=I must have lost my key.

Cheers,

Snowleopard.

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I've worked as a Thai translator and interpreter since 1981, so am quite picky when it comes to translation. None of your translations for คง is optimum for the Thai examples you gave as far as I'm concerned. I see your point about nae nae at the end, but that's like saying 'I probably left my keys ... for sure," and sounds as awkward in Thai as it does in English.

At any rate 'must have' in your translation is an idiomatic use of the Engish 'must' and has nothing to do with Boonmee's orginal inquiry about 'must' in its imperative connotations. คง never means 'must' in its canonical sense, as in 'you must do something'. คง is used to express likelihood. You can qualify it with other adverbs like nae nawn or nae nae but then you might as well not use คง in the first place. :D

I disagree about the correctness of จะ as well.

and,it's definitely better to know some Thai than to only know some Thais. :D
I agree, if you actually know Thai that is. But it's better to know Thai as Thais actually speak it than it is to know Thai as read in dictionaries or reference grammars. :o

Just a couple clarifications.
2.จำเป็นต้อง "jum-bpen dtorng"(more emphatic expression with must)

เขาจำเป็นต้องขออนุญาตครูก่อน "kaow jum-bpen dtorng ano-yaat kroo gorn"=He must ask permission from his teacher first.

More commonly (and correctly) with จะ as จำเป็นจะต้อง. Colloquially จะ may sometimes be omitted, but not by educated speakers. Or at least that's my impression.

4.คง "kong"(sometimes translated as may_sometimes as must)

ผมคงทำลูกกุญแจหล่นหายไปแล้วแน่ ๆ "pom kong tum luhk-kohn-jae lon haai bpai nae nae"=I must have lost my key.

Its literal meaning is 'sure, solid, stable,' etc, and when used as a modal (i.e., in conjuction with a verb), คง (or its full form, คงจะ) is thus more commonly translated as 'probably' rather than either 'may' (not strong enough) or 'must have' (too strong).

More commonly (and correctly) with จะ as จำเป็นจะต้อง.
I think you're wrong in your assertions about both "commonly"and "correctly". :D

จำเป็นต้อง "jum-bpen dtorng"is more commonly used than จำเป็นจะต้อง "jum-bpen ja dtorng";but both of them are correct.

In my sentence,the meaning is more direct and stronger without "ja" so I think it's the better choice. :D

Colloquially จะ may sometimes be omitted, but not by educated speakers. Or at least that's my impression.

Wrong impression... :D

and,it's definitely better to know some Thai than to only know some Thais. :D

  คง= 'may' (not strong enough) or 'must have' (too strong).
If you consider แน่ ๆ "nae nae" at the end,I'd still say that "must have" is the best translation of my Thai sentence. :D

ผมคงทำลูกกุญแจหล่นหายไปแล้วแน่ ๆ "pom kong tum luhk-kohn-jae lon haai bpai nae nae"=I must have lost my key.

Cheers,

Snowleopard.

Edited by sabaijai

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I've worked as a Thai translator and interpreter since 1981, so am quite picky when it comes to translation.
Translator of the Thai language? :D For free I hope. :o
I see your point about nae nae at the end, but that's like saying 'I probably left my keys ... for sure," and sounds as awkward in Thai as it does in English.

How about.."I must have lost my key" :D

คง never means 'must'
Never say never. :D
I disagree about the correctness of จะ as well.

จำเป็นต้อง "jum-bpen dtorng"is more commonly used than จำเป็นจะต้อง "jum-bpen ja dtorng";but both of them are correct.

In my sentence,the meaning is more direct and stronger without "ja" so I think it's the better choice. :D

Snowleopard.

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And we haven't heard much from Edward B recently.

Apologies to any 'big guns' left off the list. :o

Been busy as a beaver in a dam building contest. I promise to check back here more often.

talking about 'have to', as opposed to'must', in the negative form perplexes me in Thai, because if we say in English,''you don't have to come'', it still leaves the choice open of coming, it's rather mild;but when I hear a Thai using ไม่ตัอง the tone is often a lot sharper, more like 'don't!' Anyone else had the same experience?

bannork.

ํI know what you mean. When I came to Thailand after my first year of Thai studies in Sweden, I stayed at a guest house. The fan in my room was broken, and I told the staff at the reception. One of the male staff went by me and asked to reconfirm if the fan was broken, and I meant to tell him it was, but that he did not have to fix it right away since I was on my way out for the day anyway. For this, I used the construction

"ไม่ต้องซ่อมเดี๋ยวนี้ครับ " "mai tawng sawm diaownii khrap" which he clearly took to mean as an order NOT to repair it.

In hindsight, I think

"ยังไมจำเป็นต้องซ่อม" "yang mai jam pen tawng sawm" instead would have worked better... but somebody else might have an even more elegant solution for this (apart from not using ต้อง at all which is the easiest way out).

How about "ไม่ต้องรีบก็ได้ครับ" (No [need to] rush!)

It's a very common expression (in both languages).

Yes, that's a very elegant and idiomatic solution.

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'How about "ไม่ต้องรีบก็ได้ครับ" (No [need to] rush!)

It's a very common expression (in both languages).

Yes, that's a very elegant and idiomatic solution.'

The trouble is the ไม่ต้อง may not be related to time so the ไม่ดัองรีบ wouldn't work, in that case I guess ไม่จำเป๊น would suffice.

bannork.

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