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Deaths of Quebec women in Thailand may have been caused by pesticide

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It may have been pesticides but I highly doubt it was from the room being sprayed. If I recall it seemed like the deaths were sudden and near simultaneous and they didn't try to call or alert anyone. Doesn't seem logical it would kill them that fast and they would not have smelled something off in the room. I think they were poisoned and possibly accidental but there are just too many reasons to not believe the poison was from the room being sprayed. Even if it was sprayed in and got into drinking glasses doesn't seem all that plausible unless the glasses had so much pesticide in that it was visible in liquid form. These were not too 70 year old women with health conditions.

What has to be remembered is the total lack of any training or education on chemical use. This quite easily could have been a simple result of spraying or washing sheets with pure concoctions rather than following label mix recommendations. In CM in particular, and I guess all tourist areas a large portion of the labourious work os done by Burmese or Cambodians with no local language skills and mostly little guidance.

Depending on what is used, it can linger a hell of a long time. Rooms are meant to be vintilated properly. Bathrooms, cupboards can all retain gas in high concentration if the room isn't ventilated properly and it is used too quickly after fumigation. Things like phosphene can take up to 5 days to get to a safe limit before people can enter a room. Go in there after 4 days by accident, and you will die. Simple

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It may have been pesticides but I highly doubt it was from the room being sprayed. If I recall it seemed like the deaths were sudden and near simultaneous and they didn't try to call or alert anyone. Doesn't seem logical it would kill them that fast and they would not have smelled something off in the room. I think they were poisoned and possibly accidental but there are just too many reasons to not believe the poison was from the room being sprayed. Even if it was sprayed in and got into drinking glasses doesn't seem all that plausible unless the glasses had so much pesticide in that it was visible in liquid form. These were not too 70 year old women with health conditions.

What has to be remembered is the total lack of any training or education on chemical use. This quite easily could have been a simple result of spraying or washing sheets with pure concoctions rather than following label mix recommendations. In CM in particular, and I guess all tourist areas a large portion of the labourious work os done by Burmese or Cambodians with no local language skills and mostly little guidance.

Depending on what is used, it can linger a hell of a long time. Rooms are meant to be vintilated properly. Bathrooms, cupboards can all retain gas in high concentration if the room isn't ventilated properly and it is used too quickly after fumigation. Things like phosphene can take up to 5 days to get to a safe limit before people can enter a room. Go in there after 4 days by accident, and you will die. Simple

Actually, not that simple.

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Traces of the pesticide, aluminium phosphide, were found on dishes in the next door house in the al-Masarrah district, whose occupants had gone on holiday after having their house sprayed, reports said.

Excellent info. Does anyone know of a source of home or travel test kits to swab test for poisons like this?

Something simple that turns color if it detects a range of specific toxins, like pesticides or cleaning products?

I get messages from my apartment management that they'll be in spraying a few times a year, and I'd really like to be safe. Not to mention staying in hotels...a quick swab to sleep better (and wake up the next day).

A little bizarre how they would have found residues on plates. It is a gas, which is inhaled. Pellets are placed on a plate. Now for the plate to have been used to put the pellets on and then be used for eating is insane. Normally, the product is left on the plate for 5 days to effect the fumigation, and at about 5 days, there should be no active ingredient left. You can just dispose of the residue, normally by burying it, or burning it, jus tto be sure. You can 't swab for phospine, you need a "tube" to suck in a sample of the air to measure the PPM. It has a faint niff of garlic, and believe me, if you go into a warehouse and can smell garlic, its probably too late.

if you really want to test, call Drager in Bangkok.

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It may have been pesticides but I highly doubt it was from the room being sprayed. If I recall it seemed like the deaths were sudden and near simultaneous and they didn't try to call or alert anyone. Doesn't seem logical it would kill them that fast and they would not have smelled something off in the room. I think they were poisoned and possibly accidental but there are just too many reasons to not believe the poison was from the room being sprayed. Even if it was sprayed in and got into drinking glasses doesn't seem all that plausible unless the glasses had so much pesticide in that it was visible in liquid form. These were not too 70 year old women with health conditions.

What has to be remembered is the total lack of any training or education on chemical use. This quite easily could have been a simple result of spraying or washing sheets with pure concoctions rather than following label mix recommendations. In CM in particular, and I guess all tourist areas a large portion of the labourious work os done by Burmese or Cambodians with no local language skills and mostly little guidance.

Depending on what is used, it can linger a hell of a long time. Rooms are meant to be vintilated properly. Bathrooms, cupboards can all retain gas in high concentration if the room isn't ventilated properly and it is used too quickly after fumigation. Things like phosphene can take up to 5 days to get to a safe limit before people can enter a room. Go in there after 4 days by accident, and you will die. Simple

Actually, not that simple.

If the PPM is too high, you have very little time to react. If it as a point where it is on the borderline and you go to sleep, just look what happens. Go into a confined space with a dangerous level and you wil be in big trouble very very quickly. We used to find cats, dogs, birds and conduct fumigation in confined spaces with Full breathing apparatus.

http://www.praxairdirect.com/Specialty-Gas-Information-Center/Pure-Gas-Specifications/Phosphine.html

hosphine is a flammable, toxic, colorless gas with a very strong offensive odor at room temperature and atmospheric pressure. Faintness, apathy, nausea, weakness, dyspnea, vomiting, a fall in blood pressure, diarrhea, change in heartbeat rate, intense thirst, tightness in chest, paralysis, convulsions and coma are all symptoms of Phosphine poisoning. High concentrations of the gas (2000 ppm) are fatal to a person in a few minutes. Smaller concentrations of 400 – 600 ppm threaten life after exposure for 30-60 minutes. For more information visit our MSDS database.

Safety[edit]

Phosphine gas is more dense than air and hence may collect in low-lying areas. It can form explosive mixtures with air and also self-ignite. When phosphine burns it produces a dense white cloud of phosphorus pentoxide – a severe respiratory irritant.[9]

Phosphine can be absorbed into the body by inhalation. Direct contact with phosphine liquid – although unlikely to occur – may cause frostbite, like other cryogenic liquids. The main target organ of phosphine gas is the respiratory tract. According to the 2009 U.S. National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) pocket guide, and U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regulation, the 8 hour average respiratory exposure should not exceed 0.3 ppm. NIOSH recommends that the short term respiratory exposure to phosphine gas should not exceed 1 ppm. The Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health level is 50 ppm. Overexposure to phosphine gas causes nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea; thirst; chest tightness, dyspnea(breathing difficulty); muscle pain, chills; stupor or syncope; pulmonary edema.[10][11] Phosphine has been reported to have the odor of decaying fish or garlic at concentrations below 0.3 ppm. The smell is normally restricted to laboratory areas or phosphine processing since the smell comes from the way the phosphine is extracted from the environment. However, it may occur elsewhere, such as in industrial waste landfills. Exposure to higher concentrations may cause olfactory fatigue.[12]

On January 2014, a whole family in Jerusalem was poisoned from phosphine after a section of their apartment was fumigated for pests, and some of the young children died from the poisoning

50 PPM is quite low when you consider that to kill bugs you need 300 ppm for 3 days. Qute easy to have 50 PPM residual prior to ventilation of a fumigation. If you don't ventilate a room, the gas can hang around in a confined space. It must be ventilated.

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It may have been pesticides but I highly doubt it was from the room being sprayed. If I recall it seemed like the deaths were sudden and near simultaneous and they didn't try to call or alert anyone. Doesn't seem logical it would kill them that fast and they would not have smelled something off in the room. I think they were poisoned and possibly accidental but there are just too many reasons to not believe the poison was from the room being sprayed. Even if it was sprayed in and got into drinking glasses doesn't seem all that plausible unless the glasses had so much pesticide in that it was visible in liquid form. These were not too 70 year old women with health conditions.

What has to be remembered is the total lack of any training or education on chemical use. This quite easily could have been a simple result of spraying or washing sheets with pure concoctions rather than following label mix recommendations. In CM in particular, and I guess all tourist areas a large portion of the labourious work os done by Burmese or Cambodians with no local language skills and mostly little guidance.

Depending on what is used, it can linger a hell of a long time. Rooms are meant to be vintilated properly. Bathrooms, cupboards can all retain gas in high concentration if the room isn't ventilated properly and it is used too quickly after fumigation. Things like phosphene can take up to 5 days to get to a safe limit before people can enter a room. Go in there after 4 days by accident, and you will die. Simple

Actually, not that simple.

Normal cleaning by the maid--non toxic.

Thorough clean , tile cleaner-bathroom, damp cloths, very mild detergent.

Periodic cleaning include all hotel areas. These are normally on contract/ or back of house, rotating monthly this is up and above normal cleaning. Infestation

in rooms recommended cleaners as per hotel safe standard, items USUALLY removed to clean--if not dealt with at the site. A room or rooms will never be done when occupied, and would have a time lapse before new occupants.

I was involved with health and safety in London, and top hotels stick to cleaning methods-vip.

Notice most of these occur in smaller hotels ----lack of proper procedures, many cases penny pinching, to re occupy quickly, or as in these CM and the Island, done when the room WAS occupied.

Had normal health procedures taken place these deaths more than likely would not have occurred. Plus the toxins used sound out of this world for any residence. and how they were administered. My opinion.

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Could the use of pesticides explain why apples never seem to deteriorate here? Even with the heat over apples last weeks.

Sent from my very clever thingy that uses battery far too quickly

It's called Formalin...

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This is the Thai cocktail laced with DEET, the pesticide used in Thai cocktails in Phuket. The Thai DEET killings as reported in the Thai press.

I don't understand your post Noi.

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A banana is about the only thing that some people are capable of handling safely. A peeled one at that.

I agree with you though there's a cheap "banana pealer" to be found on the market nowadays in Thailand. But you know what... Some Thai hotel owners use them to open pesticide cans. beatdeadhorse.gif

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>... Still, he said Thailand is as safe as any other country.

“I may travel someplace and get the same problem,” he said. “I may go to Europe, Canada, Australia and can get the same problem like this ...<

What the funk?? Now that's rich you dumb-eff, just keep up the good work ... , didn't get any news like that in about the last 3 centuries from Europe/Canada/Australia ... that monkey is in charge of anything? Really?? I must be dreaming, good stuff anyway - but what an ignorant motha ...

Edited by jollyhangmon

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>... Still, he said Thailand is as safe as any other country.

“I may travel someplace and get the same problem,” he said. “I may go to Europe, Canada, Australia and can get the same problem like this ...<

What the funk?? Now that's rich you dumb-eff, just keep up the good work ... , didn't get any news like that in about the last 3 centuries from Europe/Canada/Australia ... that monkey is in charge of anything? Really?? I must be dreaming, good stuff anyway - but what an ignorant motha ...

This is the level to which supposedly educated people in Thailnad have developed. They can't even see the wool in front of their own eyes. They genuinely believe that they are up there in development with the rest of the world. They genuinely believe.

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>... Still, he said Thailand is as safe as any other country.

“I may travel someplace and get the same problem,” he said. “I may go to Europe, Canada, Australia and can get the same problem like this ...<

What the funk?? Now that's rich you dumb-eff, just keep up the good work ... , didn't get any news like that in about the last 3 centuries from Europe/Canada/Australia ... that monkey is in charge of anything? Really?? I must be dreaming, good stuff anyway - but what an ignorant motha ...

This is the level to which supposedly educated people in Thailnad have developed. They can't even see the wool in front of their own eyes. They genuinely believe that they are up there in development with the rest of the world. They genuinely believe.

Yeah mate, get your drift ... i'm here quite some time, seen enough comparable places but LOL doesn't cease to impress me in that department .. holy ess, i always hope the blunt is that trippy ... but that's just wishful thinking i'm afraid ...

Cheers

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It may have been pesticides but I highly doubt it was from the room being sprayed. If I recall it seemed like the deaths were sudden and near simultaneous and they didn't try to call or alert anyone. Doesn't seem logical it would kill them that fast and they would not have smelled something off in the room. I think they were poisoned and possibly accidental but there are just too many reasons to not believe the poison was from the room being sprayed. Even if it was sprayed in and got into drinking glasses doesn't seem all that plausible unless the glasses had so much pesticide in that it was visible in liquid form. These were not too 70 year old women with health conditions.

What has to be remembered is the total lack of any training or education on chemical use. This quite easily could have been a simple result of spraying or washing sheets with pure concoctions rather than following label mix recommendations. In CM in particular, and I guess all tourist areas a large portion of the labourious work os done by Burmese or Cambodians with no local language skills and mostly little guidance.

I was just putting out my two cents and of course could be wrong since none of us has all the facts but if this chemical was so toxic then I would suspect others to have died who sprayed the room since they would have inhaled it and it would have got into their close. Same with the people handling the laundry if for some reason they felt they needed to add to pesticides to the laundry and washing/drying wasn't enough. Even if the workers deaths were unreported, I would think at some point the boss would be tired of having to hiring new people handling this specific pesticide and move to another. And unless the hotel was known for having an uncontrollable infestation, not sure why they would change to such a deadly pesticide. Also, as I recall they took everything in the room to be examined and still no word on any trace of poison or any left over byproduct that would have been present on the items.

Edited by JohnThailandJohn
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It may have been pesticides but I highly doubt it was from the room being sprayed. If I recall it seemed like the deaths were sudden and near simultaneous and they didn't try to call or alert anyone. Doesn't seem logical it would kill them that fast and they would not have smelled something off in the room. I think they were poisoned and possibly accidental but there are just too many reasons to not believe the poison was from the room being sprayed. Even if it was sprayed in and got into drinking glasses doesn't seem all that plausible unless the glasses had so much pesticide in that it was visible in liquid form. These were not too 70 year old women with health conditions.

You have just read that this investigation has been so thorough and vigorous to the point some of the worlds top toxicologists got involved. The results took two years to conclude to make sure the facts are categorically correct. You have just had a statement from a Thai official admitting to the same, "no choice science does not lie" and you sit there and write that pile of brainless crap. Doesn't seem logical? My friend you are a dangerous individual. Scary!!!

Actually what I read is they are still only suspecting a cause of death and are still not sure of the cause and even if it was the pesticide, they have no confirmation how it was introduced to the victims.

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A little bizarre how they would have found residues on plates. It is a gas, which is inhaled...

No, aluminium phosphide AlP is a solid which reacts with water to produce phosphine gas. The AlP pellets reacts with eg moisture in the air to produce phosphine gas which kills the rodents.

Traces of the pesticide, aluminium phosphide, were found on dishes in the next door house in the al-Masarrah district, whose occupants had gone on holiday after having their house sprayed, reports said.

Excellent info. Does anyone know of a source of home or travel test kits to swab test for poisons like this?

Something simple that turns color if it detects a range of specific toxins, like pesticides or cleaning products?

I get messages from my apartment management that they'll be in spraying a few times a year, and I'd really like to be safe. Not to mention staying in hotels...a quick swab to sleep better (and wake up the next day).

Pure phosphine gas has no odour, but due to impurities may have a smell of rotting fish, eggs or garlic. So you might be able to initially smell something.

Handheld phosphine gas detectors are readily available for about US $350 (Google it).

Airplane pilots as well as ships's captains use them to make sure that the cockpit and ship’s steering room are clear of phosphine gas after fumigation.

This recent Saudi documentary shows the dangers of using AlP as a fumigant. Certainly the way the people died in Thailand matches phosphine poisoning.

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A little bizarre how they would have found residues on plates. It is a gas, which is inhaled...

No, aluminium phosphide AlP is a solid which reacts with water to produce phosphine gas. The AlP pellets reacts with eg moisture in the air to produce phosphine gas which kills the rodents.

Traces of the pesticide, aluminium phosphide, were found on dishes in the next door house in the al-Masarrah district, whose occupants had gone on holiday after having their house sprayed, reports said.

Excellent info. Does anyone know of a source of home or travel test kits to swab test for poisons like this?

Something simple that turns color if it detects a range of specific toxins, like pesticides or cleaning products?

I get messages from my apartment management that they'll be in spraying a few times a year, and I'd really like to be safe. Not to mention staying in hotels...a quick swab to sleep better (and wake up the next day).

Pure phosphine gas has no odour, but due to impurities may have a smell of rotting fish, eggs or garlic. So you might be able to initially smell something.

Handheld phosphine gas detectors are readily available for about US $350 (Google it).

Airplane pilots as well as ships's captains use them to make sure that the cockpit and ship’s steering room are clear of phosphine gas after fumigation.

This recent Saudi documentary shows the dangers of using AlP as a fumigant. Certainly the way the people died in Thailand matches phosphine poisoning.

But, what would be left on the plate would be a powder or broken down pellets. There wouldn't be much residue left in the solid.

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BANGKOK 13 December 2017 14:20
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