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rockyysdt

Was Buddism convoluted with Hindu beliefs?

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A speaker at a mainstream international Buddhist retreat recently spoke of Nibanna as a quenching of desire, of heat burning out and the cessation of Dukkha due to non attachment in this life.

He then clearly indicated that I, me, mine, ego, spirit, soul, are constructs.

That reincarnation, re birth, and realms of existence were of Hindu religion and nothing to do with the Buddhas early teachings.

He indicated that the 4 noble truths have no value without regular practice, and awakening, free from greed, delusion, and aversion, is something to experience in the here and now.

This is why I personally don't relate to amulets, temples with lavish depictions of the Buddha as a god/idol, praying to the Buddha, chanting, and lighting candles.

I know luminaries such as Ajahn Maha Boowa, and others revealed self experience of past lives, but others such as Ajahn Buddhadasa denied such things suggesting them being the work of ego.

I met a woman who regularly received religious books in the mail. Her latest read was that of a boy who claimed to meet Jesus. It was proof to her of his existence.

The boy later confessed his story was made up and that he did it to make money and become popular.

The speaker also taught that awakening was action free from dependant origination and that in an awakened one action after contact was not based on mind, feelings, becoming, & attachment, but through wisdom.

I understand there is Dukkha, but aren't the lows worthwhile for without them there can't be highs?

Either live a dispassionate life free from ego, or live with highs and lows, after all both will eventually cease due to impermanence.

Does all this matter?

Is this an unanswerable question?

Is attachment to belief in immortality one of the reasons most will not Awaken?

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ID: 2   Posted (edited)

I might add, he did mention Annata.

Neither self nor no self, but non self.

Neither positive nor negative.

Not nothing, but a void, which seems contradictory.

One thing, you will not be there as you are both imperment, and conditioned with a consciousness which depends on mind/body to exist.

Edited by rockyysdt

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You're being too literal. One isn't expected to be without emotions, just not to be a slave to passion. It's very easy to think that Buddhism is inherently nihilistic, I certainly fell for that. It's important to remember that Buddhism is often referred to as the "Middle Way". Dukkha/ Suffering does not mean a constant state of misery, just a lack of awareness as to the true nature of reality. As for rebirth, Tibetan Buddhists certainly believe it is an important tenant of the faith. It is central to the entire notion of Karma.

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ID: 7   Posted (edited)

You're being too literal. One isn't expected to be without emotions, just not to be a slave to passion. It's very easy to think that Buddhism is inherently nihilistic, I certainly fell for that. It's important to remember that Buddhism is often referred to as the "Middle Way". Dukkha/ Suffering does not mean a constant state of misery, just a lack of awareness as to the true nature of reality. As for rebirth, Tibetan Buddhists certainly believe it is an important tenant of the faith. It is central to the entire notion of Karma.

I don't think this is quite right Orient.

Destruction of the ego (permanently exposed as a construct), after awakening has occurred, removes the mechanism/chain after contact occurs which is thought, then feeling, then becoming, then craving, then attachment.

It is replaced with Contact followed by, wise action.

No longer is there feeling, then becoming, then craving, then attachment.

These are the things required for passion, feeling and so forth.

Further, there is no longer desire to initiate anything which involving desire, nor aversion, nor delusion.

Edited by rockyysdt

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ID: 8   Posted (edited)

wrong Buddhism don't come from hindusim...

because hindu is losing fellowships... as fellowship number is power..!

..so they claimed Buddha is a recarnation of Vishu..etc..

well for sure Buddhism do not believe in class system... if you are born as a Brahmin or undertaker.. u are still able to accept the practise to get enlighten.. with hard-working practise...

for hindu.. if u are born Brahmin.. u are upper class... yes for this lifetime only....

if you happen to read the book Jesus in india...is shown where is Jesus during his teens ?...well just take it a pitch of salt..

as for the 3 wise man who found jesus.. basically we know tibetian monk travel far to search for the next saint.. as he will benefits the human race regardless of which religion he will be..so likely the 3 wise monk is the tibetian monk..

Buddhism do not believe in animals sacrifices... every life is precious..

you can see the compassionation in everyone heart regardless he is a good or bad person... it is just hidden deep or shallow in the heart....

we don't denial the existing of Gods and spirits... because Budhhism need one to go into real understanding and own practise to understand it.. no amount of books knowledge can assist.. only thru own hard effort practise.. but it the Law of Nature... just that we don't accept it as not in favour to us..

we don't want get old..we don't want to lose control of the body and mind...we don't want to lose those we love or like.. and old habits of worlding teaching...40yrs in school and working environment.. changed us... competition , wealth status ,more ..more...!! in the corporate world...only build more greed in us...

non self , impermanence ....

Edited by saggicool
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I dunno....my Guruji suggested Live within "Truth, Love, and Simplicity" "Be happy!"

"Liberation is dependent on inner, rather than outer, renunciations." "Serve Humanity"

and then there is this notion......

Being born is like being kidnapped. And then sold into slavery. [Andy Warhol]

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As for rebirth, Tibetan Buddhists certainly believe it is an important tenant of the faith. It is central to the entire notion of Karma.

Precisely.

When I speak of convolution I was referring to critical tenets such as re incarnation, re birth, actual relms of existence, actions (kharma) affecting re birth (either luck, status or caste).

These are crucial ingredients which make up religion and desirability (ego).

Other posters also highlighted many other Hindu vs Buddhism specifics but the above core beliefs are my focus in the OP.

Does Tibetan Buddhist belief of these give credence?

The speaker was emphatic

He indicated that multiple lives, real realms of existence, re birth/reincarnation were not part of the original Buddhist teaching.

Original teaching was of the present moment in this life.

Those who carried on and eventually wrote the Canon were not in a vacuum. They came with colored eyes (conditioned by Hinduism, Brahmanism, and other beliefs).

In fact Buddhagosa (translated the Pali Canon) had a Christian background.

This is my point of convolution.

The interesting point is that all the 31 realms of existence can live in the mind, the full range of suffering and hell is available on this planet for all, re birth, occurring in minute fractions of existence (dependant origination : contact, consciousness, thought, feeling, craving, becoming, attachment, continuously), the next influenced by the one preceded (kharma).

The desire to exist beyond death, whether as a soul or in a common void of cosmic consciousness, fuels ego, and spawns religions.

Was the Buddha's original teachings highjacked (convoluted )?

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As for rebirth, Tibetan Buddhists certainly believe it is an important tenant of the faith. It is central to the entire notion of Karma.

Precisely.

When I speak of convolution I was referring to critical tenets such as re incarnation, re birth, actual relms of existence, actions (kharma) affecting re birth (either luck, status or caste).

These are crucial ingredients which make up religion and desirability (ego).

Other posters also highlighted many other Hindu vs Buddhism specifics but the above core beliefs are my focus in the OP.

Does Tibetan Buddhist belief of these give credence?

The speaker was emphatic

He indicated that multiple lives, real realms of existence, re birth/reincarnation were not part of the original Buddhist teaching.

Original teaching was of the present moment in this life.

Those who carried on and eventually wrote the Canon were not in a vacuum. They came with colored eyes (conditioned by Hinduism, Brahmanism, and other beliefs).

In fact Buddhagosa (translated the Pali Canon) had a Christian background.

This is my point of convolution.

The interesting point is that all the 31 realms of existence can live in the mind, the full range of suffering and hell is available on this planet for all, re birth, occurring in minute fractions of existence (dependant origination : contact, consciousness, thought, feeling, craving, becoming, attachment, continuously), the next influenced by the one preceded (kharma).

The desire to exist beyond death, whether as a soul or in a common void of cosmic consciousness, fuels ego, and spawns religions.

Was the Buddha's original teachings highjacked (convoluted )?

In is difficult at times to try and render in your own mind the abstract constructs used to represent concepts and what essentially don't exist in our physical dimensions. As with those concepts aren't like walking from one room to another as is the difference between what has been categorised as belonging in either path.

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ID: 14   Posted (edited)

As for rebirth, Tibetan Buddhists certainly believe it is an important tenant of the faith. It is central to the entire notion of Karma.

Is it?

Is this what a Hindu saw through his colored eyes.

Conversely "dependant origination" involves continuous incidences of contact leading to momentary consciousness which then lead to action. It's our last action (kharma: verb doing), which shapes the next loop.

Why does kharma have anything to do with a future life (ego)?

As a frame in a film reel, our consciousness is made up of continuous moments of consciousness. As these happen so quickly, just like a movie, we have an illusion of a me, I, inside.

Each shapes the next (kharma).

Without body there is no mind.

Without sensors (eyes, ears, skin, tongue, mind, nose) there cannot be contact, and therefore there cannot have arising to consciousness.

Edited by rockyysdt

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wrong Buddhism don't come from hindusim...

because hindu is losing fellowships... as fellowship number is power..!

..so they claimed Buddha is a recarnation of Vishu..etc..

well for sure Buddhism do not believe in class system... if you are born as a Brahmin or undertaker.. u are still able to accept the practise to get enlighten.. with hard-working practise...

for hindu.. if u are born Brahmin.. u are upper class... yes for this lifetime only....

if you happen to read the book Jesus in india...is shown where is Jesus during his teens ?...well just take it a pitch of salt..

as for the 3 wise man who found jesus.. basically we know tibetian monk travel far to search for the next saint.. as he will benefits the human race regardless of which religion he will be..so likely the 3 wise monk is the tibetian monk..

Buddhism do not believe in animals sacrifices... every life is precious..

you can see the compassionation in everyone heart regardless he is a good or bad person... it is just hidden deep or shallow in the heart....

we don't denial the existing of Gods and spirits... because Budhhism need one to go into real understanding and own practise to understand it.. no amount of books knowledge can assist.. only thru own hard effort practise.. but it the Law of Nature... just that we don't accept it as not in favour to us..

we don't want get old..we don't want to lose control of the body and mind...we don't want to lose those we love or like.. and old habits of worlding teaching...40yrs in school and working environment.. changed us... competition , wealth status ,more ..more...!! in the corporate world...only build more greed in us...

non self , impermanence ....

we don't want get old..we don't want to lose control of the body and mind...we don't want to lose those we love or like.. and old habits of worlding teaching...40yrs in school and working environment.. changed us... competition , wealth status ,more ..more...!! in the corporate world...only build more greed in us...

non self , impermanence ....

Yes it sadly does build more greed into us. This greed is now hitting epidemic proportion world wide. Big business now wants to bring the workers world wide to their knees. Their latest weapon is the Trans Pacific Trade Pact. There are clauses in this pact that will allow them to control the government of the countries they do business in. Our politicians are selling us down the river for their 10 pieces of silver.

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as with many religeons Buddhism was transported by way of the sword. It was transported origninally from India, and as other posters have mentioned Hindu refers to a number of different religiones as opposed to one.

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Christ was a practicing Jew and Buddha was born a Nepalese Hindu prince with a very over-protective father. Buddhism here is mixed in with the pre-Buddhist animist rituals (am I allowed to say mumbo-jumbo?) in the same way the Christmas & Easter as festivals predate and were adopted by Christianity. I have a feeling that the great original Gautama Buddha would have had no use for the wooden penis fertility charms on sale in most temples or the blood dripping Hindu Goddess Kali idols/dolls sold in some temples here. Look in most shops & businesses here & you will see the shop shrine with Chinese Buddhist icons etc. Religion everywhere is mixed up with other stuff because it is a human construct, not god-given, as they all claim to be. And (present company excepted of course for obvious reasons), they cannot all be right. I am an Orthodox Hedonist myself, but an amused life-long student of comparative religions.

In reality if you study history Christianity has killed more people than anything else. Over 200 million plus by my reckoning. It makes the sectarian wars going on in the middle east small in comparison. I guess every dog must have his day.

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ID: 19   Posted (edited)

The elements of Hinduism are as a result of Buddhism simply being in Hindu societies, they are not essentials and only there if they are useful and for non-Hindus, the concepts are at best only useful for exotic flights of fancy. I admit there is much that is confusing about Buddhist teachings but that is part of the training to help us develop the necessary perspicacity and discernment, both of which are truly indispensable and closer to the core of the teachings than any inherited concepts or dogma.

And I think we can see quite easily, re-incarnation is more and more going to take a backseat in western Buddhism because that aspect just doesn't wash with most of us. I find it interesting that a number of major teachers who are said to be re-incarnations frequently say they have no memory of past-lives and seem to have a rather bemused attitude about how their societies foisted various titles and offices upon them at a very early age. I think we get a rather twisted view on Dalai Lama and the other reincarnating masters from the western media and entertainment outlets who exaggerate certain features of the re-incarnation notion for the sake of a story. The real deal is too subtle and boring for 99% of the readership.

It is also pointed out, quite often in these kinds of discussions with Westerners who seem to feel they need to believe in re-incarnation in order to be a good Buddhist, that if an essential point of the teaching is the illusory nature of all phenomena, then that too includes the self. What that implies is that really, there is no reincarnation either as there is nothing in particular one can put one's finger at that has incarnated in the first place. Going the other way however, it is often pointed out, how could something end or die if it hasn't incarnated in the first place. And our non-existent status is hardly a big nothing, any less than a powerful dream is. My incarnations and reincarnations are all the various lives I have lived under the name given to me by my mother. Or they are when I wake up in the morning, reincarnating from the afterlife of my dreams and unconcious dead asleep state. Or I could say I have reincarnated as a grumpy middled aged meditating recluse from past lives as a semi-qualified university English professor in many Asian coutries, after a previous life as a fast food industry worker, university student, punk zine editor, writer, electronics geek and knob twiddler in a Dadaist noise band in America after a life as a schoolyard basketball gunslinger.

I think the point about re-incarnation more interestingly hinges on the weirdness of our condition. We don't remember not having been, so there is still that possibility in our minds that that situation is fundamental and guarantees our immortality as it were.

Edited by Shaunduhpostman

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Christ was a practicing Jew and Buddha was born a Nepalese Hindu prince with a very over-protective father. Buddhism here is mixed in with the pre-Buddhist animist rituals (am I allowed to say mumbo-jumbo?) in the same way the Christmas & Easter as festivals predate and were adopted by Christianity. I have a feeling that the great original Gautama Buddha would have had no use for the wooden penis fertility charms on sale in most temples or the blood dripping Hindu Goddess Kali idols/dolls sold in some temples here. Look in most shops & businesses here & you will see the shop shrine with Chinese Buddhist icons etc. Religion everywhere is mixed up with other stuff because it is a human construct, not god-given, as they all claim to be. And (present company excepted of course for obvious reasons), they cannot all be right. I am an Orthodox Hedonist myself, but an amused life-long student of comparative religions.

In reality if you study history Christianity has killed more people than anything else. Over 200 million plus by my reckoning. It makes the sectarian wars going on in the middle east small in comparison. I guess every dog must have his day.

Reality? Study? Sounds like you are just repeating the common false belief that Christianity was the biggest killer of the 20th Century and havent actually taken the time to study anything. It was not christianity but atheism which killed about 260 million in the last century making it the biggest killer of all religions.

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Buddha taught that the Hindu gods were not worthy of veneration due to them being stuck in the same cyclic existence as mortals but, he did not deny their existence. He taught that Brahmins had altered the Veda to suit themselves but he did not deny that the Veda was sacred. It is probably this level of acceptance that led to Buddhists continuing some of their animistic beliefs and still worshipping the old Gods while also adopting Buddhist philosophy. Buddha was a Hindu and he sought to convert other Hindus, it is only natural that some beliefs were carried over and became entwined in his new belief system. The word Buddha actually comes from Hinduism where it had been used as an alternative name for Lord Shiva. The Dharma is lifted straight from Hinduism, as is the concept of karma and the practices of meditation and yoga.

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ID: 22   Posted (edited)

Buddha himself despised and ridiculed organized religions (in the way an enlightened person can only do). He invited anyone from any religion to come and sit with him and practice, because his path had nothing to do with religion, it is a path of self awareness that only the individual himself can walk, with guidance from a Teacher, but ultimately it is only the individual that can discover the truth.

Organised Buddhism itself is a perversion of his teachings and the word Buddhism was never mentioned by Buddha himself.

Reincarnation and the concept of rebirth is a Hindu idea.

What Buddha realized is that there is no soul or spirit, there are only actions. It is these actions that is carried forward to another body by the tremendous trauma of dying for a person with deep attachments to life. In fact it is one single defining action carved in stone that carries forward to another life.

This is what he managed to do, meditate to a point that he eliminated all attachments and became free of this cycle, it took him 9 years of meditation 24 hours a day, and even before he sat down for these 9 years he had tried many many other ways to become enlightened, so even before he started he had come quiet a long way on that road.

So for most of us normal people we cannot hope to attain anything near that, only someway towards that final goal.

You will not get anywhere on the way by reading books, only the practice of meditation will take you further on the path, in the way Buddha himself taught.

So relating to rebirth, there is no such thing as an "I" or "Self", "Spirit", Soul". only very deep actions/emotions that carry forward free of any "I" or "Self". When a baby is born it is born without "I" but because of the very strong action/emotion carried forward by another, it will develop an "I" rather quickly.

Don't ask me how this takes place physically, I am just saying what Buddha said. After all he discovered the subatomic particles (which he called "Callapas") just by observing his body and mind.

Buddha himself remembered thousand upon thousand of previous lives, but how that exactly worked I do not know either.

Edited by AlQaholic

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ID: 23   Posted (edited)

Buddha taught that the Hindu gods were not worthy of veneration due to them being stuck in the same cyclic existence as mortals but, he did not deny their existence. He taught that Brahmins had altered the Veda to suit themselves but he did not deny that the Veda was sacred. It is probably this level of acceptance that led to Buddhists continuing some of their animistic beliefs and still worshipping the old Gods while also adopting Buddhist philosophy. Buddha was a Hindu and he sought to convert other Hindus, it is only natural that some beliefs were carried over and became entwined in his new belief system. The word Buddha actually comes from Hinduism where it had been used as an alternative name for Lord Shiva. The Dharma is lifted straight from Hinduism, as is the concept of karma and the practices of meditation and yoga.

A few discrepancies S.

The Buddha never referred to himself as Buddha nor Lord.

This came after his death.

He was referred as "Tathagata", one who has thus gone, or one who has thus come.

He never confirmed nor denied the existence of Brahman himself, but said even he was un awakened living in Samsara, a lampooning or huge demotion of the ultimate head God.

Your statement, Buddhism lifted from Hinduism, is this how you find it practiced or are you saying this is the Buddhas early teachings?

The International Retreat speaker, sourcing his knowledge directly under the tutelage of Ajahn Buddhadasa makes it clear Awakening is to be had here and now, not in supposed future lives.

We are talking about two subjects.

What the Buddha actually taught vs Teachings fainted by Hinduism.

Edited by rockyysdt

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So much ego on display. Wow!! When Gautama was asked if he was God, a saint, a prophet and so on, he replied " I am awake" translated, ' I am Buddha '. Meaning, when the ego rants, whether to our own self or to others, we are asleep. Everyone knows religion is used to control people . The root word is to tie down. So guys , wake up!!. Then we are all Buddhas

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ID: 25   Posted (edited)

Buddha himself despised and ridiculed organized religions (in the way an enlightened person can only do). He invited anyone from any religion to come and sit with him and practice, because his path had nothing to do with religion, it is a path of self awareness that only the individual himself can walk, with guidance from a Teacher, but ultimately it is only the individual that can discover the truth.

Organised Buddhism itself is a perversion of his teachings and the word Buddhism was never mentioned by Buddha himself.

Reincarnation and the concept of rebirth is a Hindu idea.

What Buddha realized is that there is no soul or spirit, there are only actions. It is these actions that is carried forward to another body by the tremendous trauma of dying for a person with deep attachments to life. In fact it is one single defining action carved in stone that carries forward to another life.

This is what he managed to do, meditate to a point that he eliminated all attachments and became free of this cycle, it took him 9 years of meditation 24 hours a day, and even before he sat down for these 9 years he had tried many many other ways to become enlightened, so even before he started he had come quiet a long way on that road.

So for most of us normal people we cannot hope to attain anything near that, only someway towards that final goal.

You will not get anywhere on the way by reading books, only the practice of meditation will take you further on the path, in the way Buddha himself taught.

So relating to rebirth, there is no such thing as an "I" or "Self", "Spirit", Soul". only very deep actions/emotions that carry forward free of any "I" or "Self". When a baby is born it is born without "I" but because of the very strong action/emotion carried forward by another, it will develop an "I" rather quickly.

Don't ask me how this takes place physically, I am just saying what Buddha said. After all he discovered the subatomic particles (which he called "Callapas") just by observing his body and mind.

Buddha himself remembered thousand upon thousand of previous lives, but how that exactly worked I do not know either.

Are you sure?

These many lives, couldn't they be moment to moment?

The next lives carried over due to deep actions/emotions, couldn't these also be moment to moment.

This is the crossroad.

The nexus between religion vs simply a teaching freeing one from Dukkha in the here and now.

Edited by rockyysdt

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