rooster59

May ready for tough talks over Brexit

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An offensive troll post has been removed as well as the replies.  The Report button is at the top of each post, please use the report button only for posts in blatant violation of the forum rules. 

 

Other nonsense posts are about to disappear.

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19 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

If Schengen borders were secure, I don't think there is a major problem. But in the current febrile environment there are problems in several northern EU states which require attention. How to deal with the specific UK issue is a bit different. Maybe the collapsing pound will produce its own solution.

 

What do Schengen borders have to do with the free movement of people? Britain isn't part of the Schengen agreement but still has to allow freedom of movement while it remains a part of the EU.

 

And what do you mean by "problems in several northern EU states which require attention"? It sounds like you're confusing free movement of EU-migrants with those from other countries which has caused Denmark, Germany and Austria to introduce border controls. Merkel created the problem by inviting Syrian refugees to Germany but was overwhelmed by the numbers that took the invitation at face value. That problem has been compounded by gangs smuggling economic migrants looking for a better life in Europe.

 

Border controls have now been introduced to stem the flow. But that has nothing to do with EU-migrants who are entitled to live and work in any of the 28 (soon to be 27 when the UK leaves) member states. For example, Danish citizens can move to and work in Germany or the Netherlands. Italians can go work in Austria or Hungary. But Moroccans or Turks are considered economic migrants and cannot move or work in any EU member state because neither Morocco or Turkey is a member of the EU.

 

As for the UK, it looks like bankers aren't going to hang around until March next year and will be making arrangements to move to an EU location sooner rather than later: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37743700

 

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3 minutes ago, Xircal said:

 

What do Schengen borders have to do with the free movement of people? Britain isn't part of the Schengen agreement but still has to allow freedom of movement while it remains a part of the EU.

 

And what do you mean by "problems in several northern EU states which require attention"? It sounds like you're confusing free movement of EU-migrants with those from other countries which has caused Denmark, Germany and Austria to introduce border controls. Merkel created the problem by inviting Syrian refugees to Germany but was overwhelmed by the numbers that took the invitation at face value. That problem has been compounded by gangs smuggling economic migrants looking for a better life in Europe.

 

Border controls have now been introduced to stem the flow. But that has nothing to do with EU-migrants who are entitled to live and work in any of the 28 (soon to be 27 when the UK leaves) member states. For example, Danish citizens can move to and work in Germany or the Netherlands. Italians can go work in Austria or Hungary. But Moroccans or Turks are considered economic migrants and cannot move or work in any EU member state because neither Morocco or Turkey is a member of the EU.

 

As for the UK, it looks like bankers aren't going to hang around until March next year and will be making arrangements to move to an EU location sooner rather than later: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37743700

 

 

If the banks leave, do we get to do an Iceland and put the rest in prison?

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You are absolutely correct. I certainly have no problem with free movement within the EU except when economic conditions mean that very large numbers have to be accommodated over a short period. One of the points that came up with Brexit was not so much the level of migration  but the rate of migration. I believe some kind of regulation of flow must be possible. Sadly, many confuse the the refugee problem and the economic migrant problem with the free flow within Europe. EU countries with which I am very familiar have been severely affected by immigrant flows and this does affect the judgement of the population. What to do ?

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1 hour ago, Grouse said:

You are absolutely correct. I certainly have no problem with free movement within the EU except when economic conditions mean that very large numbers have to be accommodated over a short period. One of the points that came up with Brexit was not so much the level of migration  but the rate of migration. I believe some kind of regulation of flow must be possible. Sadly, many confuse the the refugee problem and the economic migrant problem with the free flow within Europe. EU countries with which I am very familiar have been severely affected by immigrant flows and this does affect the judgement of the population. What to do ?

 

Rate of migration? Why does it matter if migrants are contributing to the country's economy? The more people in work the more revenue for the Exchequer. It would be perplexing if a country were to curb immigration purely to reduce numbers while there's still a need for workers in many industries which can't be fulfilled by the local population.

 

Also many of immigrants set up their own businesses and become employers themselves. Look at all the Polish delicatessens which have sprung up around the UK for example. Are they a bad thing d'you think and if so, why?

 

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I'm just explaining what was observed during the referendum.

 

Take a town like Boston in Lincolnshire. The percentage of migrants was not excessive but the number had increased rapidly over a short period. That seemed to turn the local population against migrants more than some other areas with a much higher immigrant population. I understand your logic but that is what happened.

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1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I'm just explaining what was observed during the referendum.

 

Take a town like Boston in Lincolnshire. The percentage of migrants was not excessive but the number had increased rapidly over a short period. That seemed to turn the local population against migrants more than some other areas with a much higher immigrant population. I understand your logic but that is what happened.

 

I don't think it's the actual number of migrants, but rather that they're foreigners as opposed to Englishmen (an women). According to this BBC report, local residents object to living next door to migrants from another country even though the city has prospered from the influx: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36258541

 

I think that's called xenophobia isn't it?

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2 hours ago, Xircal said:

 

I don't think it's the actual number of migrants, but rather that they're foreigners as opposed to Englishmen (an women). According to this BBC report, local residents object to living next door to migrants from another country even though the city has prospered from the influx: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36258541

 

I think that's called xenophobia isn't it?

 

Sadly, I have no answer to that 😕

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ID: 85   Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Xircal said:

 

I don't think it's the actual number of migrants, but rather that they're foreigners as opposed to Englishmen (an women). According to this BBC report, local residents object to living next door to migrants from another country even though the city has prospered from the influx: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36258541

 

I think that's called xenophobia isn't it?

 

We complain about xenophobia in Thailand but I do think it's equally if not worse in the UK in many respects, goodness, just look at the North South divide to understand that. And if the impact on regional economy as a result is not obvious here's a prime example: last week I sent a request for quotes for legal work to two firms, one in the Hants. and one in E. Yorks., two pieces of work and identical specifications. The quotes came back, GBP 785 vs 199, and 6,400 vs1980, the first number of the pair being the one from the South - the price of lack of investment spurred by xenophobia perhaps!

 

It's not dissimilar to the NIMBY's who don't want new houses constructed in their villages/towns/near by. There we have a desperate need to build new houses because there's a chronic shortage, yet residents of candidate areas repeatedly and loudly shout no, not in my back yard. Ditto immigrants, the country its businesses and the economy desperately need immigrant labour but can they be housed next door, of course not, all of a sudden protection of "my space" becomes far more important than the common good or even any national imperative. What is to be done? In both cases government must be able to say sorry, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and push ahead with the initiative and even set aside areas specially for immigrants, they could call it, Bradford perhaps!

 

But you see the problem: for example, the use of Indian and Asian labour in the textile industry in the North of England in the post war years was a good idea, sadly though the process was started and then left to run without being managed. The good people of the Shires didn't have to live next door to those workers so it wasn't an issue that they needed to care or even think about and perhaps that's the answer - perhaps the NIMBY's need to be made to live next door to immigrants in order for any immigrant program to work successfully, distribute them (as a requirement if necessary) and make every town and village take an immigrant quota and don't let them cluster - the sad fact is that we probably need more immigrants rather then less, but we need to do a much better job of managing and integrating them.

Edited by chiang mai
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ID: 87   Posted (edited)

And here we have the truth. The Tories may be "forced" to slash corporation tax to 10% because of Brexit negotiations! Hello numpties? Still think May's good for you? This is even more cynical than I had supposed. I thought driving the pound down was enough, but no, the Tories will now go for massive corporation tax cuts. 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-business-corporation-tax-eu-referendum-article-50-a7376816.html%3famp?client=safari

Edited by Grouse

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Why don't we just make corporation tax 0%? I know, let's PAY Nissan to keep manufacturing in the U.K.! At least we have our sovereignty!

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2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why don't we just make corporation tax 0%? I know, let's PAY Nissan to keep manufacturing in the U.K.! At least we have our sovereignty!

 

Yeah, great idea, I'll buy into that, will it work like the EU paying our farmers for not farming?

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7 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

Yeah, great idea, I'll buy into that, will it work like the EU paying our farmers for not farming?

 

Nice deflection! Well done!

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One question is, who pays for these cuts and these incentives, if we have a budget deficit today whilst we're still trading fully with the EU, and once we leave our economy will shrink to some degree (perhaps to a lesser degree, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not), surely that just increases the deficit. So who will pay for the deficit and the underlying debt, it has to be the taxpayer through increased taxes or reduced services, which would you prefer!

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9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

One question is, who pays for these cuts and these incentives, if we have a budget deficit today whilst we're still trading fully with the EU, and once we leave our economy will shrink to some degree (perhaps to a lesser degree, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not), surely that just increases the deficit. So who will pay for the deficit and the underlying debt, it has to be the taxpayer through increased taxes or reduced services, which would you prefer!

 

Unfortunately the answer is known.

Your children will have to pay

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2 hours ago, Grouse said:

And here we have the truth. The Tories may be "forced" to slash corporation tax to 10% because of Brexit negotiations! Hello numpties? Still think May's good for you? This is even more cynical than I had supposed. I thought driving the pound down was enough, but no, the Tories will now go for massive corporation tax cuts. 

 

 

 

I certainly wouldn't be describing an unnamed source as the truth. 'Rumour' is the correct word.

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ID: 94   Posted (edited)

A very good article follows which talks about the BOE, Mark Carney and Brexit, wroth reading all the way through before criticising Carney's performance - please note the highly relevant comments about looking at the world through Rees Mogg glasses and intellectual pygmies:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/mark-carney-bank-of-england-jacob-rees-mogg-michael-gove-brexit-economy-a7376206.html

Edited by chiang mai
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19 minutes ago, Orac said:

Another article from a highly regarded economist with good technical details on the circumstances the UK is facing along with predictions of further depreciation of sterling and falling standards of living.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-uk-import-substitution-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-10

 

That's a very good read, it rather knocks on the head the idea that a devalued Pound is good for exports:

 

"But various studies have shown that the price elasticity of demand for UK exports is low. For example, a recent paper by Francesco Aiello, Graziella Bonanno, and Alessia Via of the European Trade Study Group finds that “the long-run level of exports appears to be unrelated to the real exchange rate for the UK.”

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2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

 

I certainly wouldn't be describing an unnamed source as the truth. 'Rumour' is the correct word.

 

When the Independent quotes an "unnamed source" I think it's rather more than a rumour. However, I think it all seems to fit quite nicely. My use of the word "truth" concerned Tory aims not the veracity of the article. But you know that.

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8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

When the Independent quotes an "unnamed source" I think it's rather more than a rumour. However, I think it all seems to fit quite nicely. My use of the word "truth" concerned Tory aims not the veracity of the article. But you know that.

 

No, I didn't know that. I assumed that when you stated "And here we have the truth" and then proceeded to speculate about an article you linked, you were discussing the article you linked (which is an article based on an unnamed source, so can't be classed as the truth because it's information can't be verified).

 

Note to self: work on your telepathy skills, or think 'oh no, here we go again.....'.

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1 hour ago, Orac said:

Another article from a highly regarded economist with good technical details on the circumstances the UK is facing along with predictions of further depreciation of sterling and falling standards of living.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-uk-import-substitution-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-10

 

Yes, excellent. Clearly we need a UK manufactured smart phone. Made from wood presumably.

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BANGKOK 30 April 2017 20:07
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