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Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

784 posts in this topic

Yes, only the SNP in Holyrood engages in political point scoring. Every other party in the country refers to Debrett's for each and every interaction with the opposition.


I certainly do not miss the point of individuals wishing independence, nobody can summarise Brexit as nothing as it's still too early with no facts to support their argument, however a factual credible & strategic plan for the Scottish electorate to analysis and form a conclusion doesn't fill many with confidence the SNP know what they're doing.

Avoiding thread derailment, see how Spain is using Gib as a bargaining tool which will fall on deaf ears despite over 300 years of trying. The voice of 'many' of Scotland isn't the same as the SNP's propaganda argument that the majority are seeking independence which is factually incorrect, yet another flawed argument the SNP need reminding on.


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4 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

 


I certainly do not miss the point of individuals wishing independence, nobody can summarise Brexit as nothing as it's still too early with no facts to support their argument, however a factual credible & strategic plan for the Scottish electorate to analysis and form a conclusion doesn't fill many with confidence the SNP know what they're doing.

Avoiding thread derailment, see how Spain is using Gib as a bargaining tool which will fall on deaf ears despite over 300 years of trying. The voice of 'many' of Scotland isn't the same as the SNP's propaganda argument that the majority are seeking independence which is factually incorrect, yet another flawed argument the SNP need reminding on.


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So are you suggesting that you lack confidence in the Brexit outcome? Do you also question the wisdom of holding that referendum with so little basis on which to form a rational opinion?

What aspects of the SNP's strategy gives you cause for concern? The Scottish government published a white paper in 2014 with their proposals for independence. No referendum has yet been agreed this time, but I am confident that when it is called, the white paper will be reprised.

 

The SNP was elected to the Scottish parliament with 48.8% of the vote (regional and constituency), for which they received 64 seats. The other pro-independence party, the Greens, received 4.7% of votes and 6 seats. Combined, the two pro-independence parties achieved a 53.5% of all votes cast. That is a majority in anyone's language.

 

If that wasn't enough, however, it was there in black and white in their election manifesto - Brexit, should it occur, would be considered a material change and be cause to call for a new referendum. That is what half the country voted for.

 

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I'm suggesting I've more confidence in the current UK Government seeking an 'overall' fair pragmatic deal for the whole UK than I have of the SNP own domestic agenda.

I'd certainly hope the previous 2014 white paper would be reprised, thus giving the electorate the raw mean facts, until then the UK Government are quite right & reasonable to delay Sturgeon her referendum call.

Brexit 'is' not should occurring, A50 has been invoked so the official channels of negotiations are ongoing, thus the EU response has been well documented and publicised.

The focus should be UK Brexit & other governmental issues, and achieving the best outcome overall for all parts of the Union for generations to come.


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This whole scenario is earily reminiscent of Pancho Villa's excursion into New Mexico during WW1. It remains to be seen what external influences might be in play this time around, but Germany and/or Russia cannot be ruled out.

 

Millbank and Vauxhall will presumably be thinking same...

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16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

If Indyref2 were held before Brexit had been finalised and the full terms of the UK's future relationship with the EU known, then Scottish voters would not know exactly what they were voting for.

 

As I said earlier

 Do you, like Sturgeon and RuamRudy, not want the Scottish people to have all the facts before they decide?

 

If not, why not?

As usual distorted view of the situation. The vote will not really be for independence, it will be a choice of remain in UK or get back to the EU. The outcome of the brexit negotiations is a bit immaterial unless of course there is some chance the UK will remain in the EU. Timing is quite important in respect of trying to manage a potential transition and TM is just trying to frustrate the Scottish parliament.

In voting 'for' the white paper the voters would know what they were voting for, with the option of voting against.

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10 hours ago, citybiker said:

I'm suggesting I've more confidence in the current UK Government seeking an 'overall' fair pragmatic deal for the whole UK than I have of the SNP own domestic agenda.

I'd certainly hope the previous 2014 white paper would be reprised, thus giving the electorate the raw mean facts, until then the UK Government are quite right & reasonable to delay Sturgeon her referendum call.

Brexit 'is' not should occurring, A50 has been invoked so the official channels of negotiations are ongoing, thus the EU response has been well documented and publicised.

The focus should be UK Brexit & other governmental issues, and achieving the best outcome overall for all parts of the Union for generations to come.


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It seems that you are open to double standards in your assessment of politics. From start to finish, Brexit had nothing tangible from either side to back up their cases; we went through with it and now we are having it enacted - and still those leading us towards its conclusion have no idea of the end game - yet that is somehow good? The SNP has made crystal clear their perceived end game for Scotland, yet that is somehow bad?

 

That you don't have confidence in the SNP is irrelevant. The white paper exists - Brexit was based on nothing concrete and remains nothing but squabble and bitterness.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

Sturgeon is doing what you accuse the government of. She has no idea if the EU would accept Scotland into the EU.

She has the continuously positive feedback of various member states and officials within the EU to provide confidence. In fact, the only suggestion of Scotland being blocked is part of the Yoonie fake news campaign, which began in 2012 and has not stopped yet.

 

7 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

She has no idea which currency Scotland would have.

She has commissioned a panel of experts to investigate all options and report back in August with a proposal.

 

8 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

She is not being honest with the electorate,

In what way?

 

8 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

and has made a mess of running Scotland.

Can you be more specific?

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19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

She has the continuously positive feedback of various member states and officials within the EU to provide confidence

Yes because they calculate that maybe it would force the UK to stay in the EU to avoid a breakup of the UK. Just like they say the UK will have to jump through hoops to get a deal.  

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Can you be more specific?


Continuous positive feedback?

So no concrete assurances, just warm words.

The SNP analysis, and their basis of putting forward their EU plan is on positive feedback. Scotland requires all EU member states to agree to Sturgeon's proposal, Spain has already stated it will veto the SG application.

Words fail me.


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10 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

 


Continuous positive feedback?

So no concrete assurances, just warm words.

The SNP analysis, and their basis of putting forward their EU plan is on positive feedback. Scotland requires all EU member states to agree to Sturgeon's proposal, Spain has already stated it will veto the SG application.

Words fail me.


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I think words do fail you. I was asking the OP to be more specific about his statement that the SNP had 'made a mess of running Scotland'. Your response, like his, offers nothing in the way of backing up that suggestion.

 

As for Spain, well I have been trying to educate people for a long time but it is like talking to a brick wall. Maybe today's Guardian will help you understand that, there also, you are very wrong?

 

Spain drops plan to impose veto if Scotland tries to join EU

"Spain has said it would not veto an attempt by an independent Scotland to join the EU, in the clearest sign yet that Brexit has softened Madrid’s longstanding opposition.

Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland’s EU hopes, although he stressed that Madrid would not welcome the disintegration of the UK. "

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Leaving Gibraltar in the EU without compromising its status as a dependant territory would be benefitial to all parties IMO.

 

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I think words do fail you. I was asking the OP to be more specific about his statement that the SNP had 'made a mess of running Scotland'. Your response, like his, offers nothing in the way of backing up that suggestion.
 
As for Spain, well I have been trying to educate people for a long time but it is like talking to a brick wall. Maybe today's Guardian will help you understand that, there also, you are very wrong?
 
Spain drops plan to impose veto if Scotland tries to join EU
"Spain has said it would not veto an attempt by an independent Scotland to join the EU, in the clearest sign yet that Brexit has softened Madrid’s longstanding opposition.
Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland’s EU hopes, although he stressed that Madrid would not welcome the disintegration of the UK. "


Yes, I was awaiting with amusement for the Guardian article to surface, so Spain changes its mind/softens its approach towards Scotland's EU plan, the cynic in me will pause & make an conclusive summary as Gibraltar is still being used.

UK disintegration not welcome, balanced viewpoint.


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2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

She has the continuously positive feedback of various member states and officials within the EU to provide confidence. In fact, the only suggestion of Scotland being blocked is part of the Yoonie fake news campaign, which began in 2012 and has not stopped yet.

 

She has commissioned a panel of experts to investigate all options and report back in August with a proposal.

 

In what way?

 

Can you be more specific?

 

Sturgeon says their feed back is positive. She also said she could veto Brexit personally and that May confirmed it!

 

She's not exactly unbiased in wanting people to believe that now is she?

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