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EricTh

Thai language is a mixture of Sanskrit and Tai

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CaptHaddock    1,763
On 6/29/2017 at 1:39 PM, Oxx said:

Incidentally, what you are describing as "Sanskrit" words are more often Pali, Pali being the Buddhist liturgical language here, so having been well understood by the elite.  In that vein, กรุณา is actually from Pali, not Sanskrit.  The etymology of รับประทาน is unknown, but there's nothing in the spelling to make me think it's anything other than a native Thai word.

 

There is even a term for a Thai compound word made up of both a Sanskrit and a Pali word, such as วัฒนธรรม.  Educated Thais are attuned to the differences between Thai words of Sanskrit and Pali origin.

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Dante99    1,713
On 6/29/2017 at 2:52 PM, EricTh said:

 

Is there any  informal native Thai word for 'computer' in Thai?

 

So please don't insult my intelligence.

If there was an informal native Thai word for "computer", wouldn't it have to be in Thai?

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Oxx    1,226
Posted (edited)

59570b2f7df5c_.png.e6a48d527765f39d90eba98f0d6e9f8d.png

21 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Unfortunately, the Thai-English dictionaries available mainly do no include this information.

 

The most notable exception is that of Mary Haas.  For example, for รับประทาน we have usage (Elegant) and the common synonym, กิน.

 

Available online at http://www.sealang.net/thai/dictionary.htm

 

 

รับประทาน.png

Edited by Oxx
Tried to fix attachment
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tgeezer    271
59570b2f7df5c_.png.e6a48d527765f39d90eba98f0d6e9f8d.png
 
The most notable exception is that of Mary Haas.  For example, for รับประทาน we have usage (Elegant) and the common synonym, กิน.
 
Available online at http://www.sealang.net/thai/dictionary.htm
 
 
59570b2f7df5c_.png.e6a48d527765f39d90eba98f0d6e9f8d.png

Since I was corrected once on saying ประ following the tone rules, I always make a point of saying ประ low tone. Since that entry doesn't show low tone for ประ I wonder if should have listened.


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CaptHaddock    1,763
3 hours ago, tgeezer said:


Since I was corrected once on saying ประ following the tone rules, I always make a point of saying ประ low tone. Since that entry doesn't show low tone for ประ I wonder if should have listened.


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ประ is indeed low tone while ทาน is mid tone just as we would expect.  I am not familiar with the tonal markers above, but that's what they should be saying.

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DavidHouston    131

Eric:

 

Word created for "computer" -  "คณิตกรณ์"

hardware - "กระด้างภัณฑ์"

software - "ละมุนภัณฑ์"


Of course there made-up words are completely obsolete, and probably were when invented. In fact the Royal Society disclaims the use of these words.

For more see http://www.royin.go.th/?p=9475
 

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Richard W    378
On 01/07/2017 at 5:42 AM, tgeezer said:


Since I was corrected once on saying ประ following the tone rules, I always make a point of saying ประ low tone. Since that entry doesn't show low tone for ประ I wonder if should have listened.

It looks as though she did listen, and got it right.  I believe she's giving the normal pronunciation, in which /a/ in an unstressed, phonetically open syllable (after automatic glottal stop deletion) normally has the mid tone.

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On 2017-07-03 at 2:25 PM, Richard W said:

It looks as though she did listen, and got it right.  I believe she's giving the normal pronunciation, in which /a/ in an unstressed, phonetically open syllable (after automatic glottal stop deletion) normally has the mid tone.

After years of slowly casually keeping at my Thai studies I am still very noob!

But If I follow correct ...  your saying that if  ประ  stood alone or occurred at the end of the word it is flat tone ?  I googled  for a while could only come up with a few facebook names and a resort with ประ at the end, do you have any words handy like this ?

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Richard W    378
10 hours ago, whatever_works said:

After years of slowly casually keeping at my Thai studies I am still very noob!

But If I follow correct ...  your saying that if  ประ  stood alone or occurred at the end of the word it is flat tone ?  I googled  for a while could only come up with a few facebook names and a resort with ประ at the end, do you have any words handy like this ?

Unstressed final syllables are rare, if not non-existent, in Thai.  ประ is very common as an unstressed first syllable.

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Mole    1,317

Curiously, I did a search on the etymology of "รับประทาน" and found this:

http://www.royin.go.th/?knowledges=รับประทาน-๓๐-ตุลาคม-๒๕๕๒

 

It appears to be a mix of both Thai and Sanskrit word.

รับ which is native Thai word which means "receive"

ประทาน from Sanskrit pradana ปฺรทาน from meaning of "giving"

The above link explains the origins of this word.

 

The Thai word "ปรารถนา" with appears to come from same origin, but modern meaning of ปรารถนา has become "desire" or "wish".

Not just words in "royal speech" is from Khmer. Many Thai word in daily usage also have origins from Khmer.

 

As many has pointed out, most other languages also are in similar situation as in Thailand where there are lots of words which has origins from other languages.

Similar to other languages, where words which originated from other language, modern meaning may be different than original meaning.
This is very true for Thai language where not only the pronunciation has been corrupted but the meaning as well.

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Deserted    411
Posted (edited)
On 29/06/2017 at 9:19 AM, DavidHouston said:

Eric, isn't English similarly at heart a dual-sourced language? Many words are Germanic, while Latin-origin words came with the Normans in 1066 and afterwards. For example, Germanic/Latinate:

ache/pain

anger/rage

answer/response

eat/consume

before/prior

 

and, many, many more.

English is, by academics, described as Creole. Generally speaking many now drop the term 'Germanic', Max Muller's phrase whilst head of English at Oxford University. The teaching Company have some great lectures on that in audio files and they can be found online. The Norman Conquest in England forced out language to undergo a process of creolization as it was imposed by Royalty, hence the import of many 'northern' French words into what was once 'old English'. 

Edited by Deserted

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CaptHaddock    1,763
8 hours ago, Deserted said:

English is, by academics, described as Creole. Generally speaking many now drop the term 'Germanic', Max Muller's phrase whilst head of English at Oxford University. The teaching Company have some great lectures on that in audio files and they can be found online. The Norman Conquest in England forced out language to undergo a process of creolization as it was imposed by Royalty, hence the import of many 'northern' French words into what was once 'old English'. 

Doubtful that modern English is a creole, which is a stable, natural language that has developed from a pidgin.  This looks like a minority view.  It is unlikely that any creole formed after the Norman Invasion.  The ruling class, including the kings, just continued to speak Norman French exclusively for hundreds of years without much need to converse with the peasantry.  Similarly, during the British Raj no creole developed from pidgin English.  Instead, the Indians used Enligh and Hindi/Urdu as lingua francas.

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Deserted    411

Modern English was more than 500 years away from coming into existence at that time. I think you guys need some background in applied linguistics. You might want to go beyond wikipedia to define what a creole actually is,

 

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tgeezer    271

This would seem to round the discussion off nicely. I had some vague idea that in English creole was something to do with the West Indies and didn't know that it had been adopted as jargon in 'applied linguistics'.


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Johpa    2,105
On 8/11/2017 at 11:35 PM, Deserted said:

Modern English was more than 500 years away from coming into existence at that time. I think you guys need some background in applied linguistics. You might want to go beyond wikipedia to define what a creole actually is,

 

Actually Wikipedia has a decent article on creole languages and includes the various controversies endemic to the subject. It even has a link to the Middle English Creole hypothesis in the list of creole languages.

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