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Ireland floats special EU-UK customs union as way to break Brexit logjam

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smedly    14,945
1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

Well one solution being suggested is that all Northern Ireland residents be issued with Irish passports which would actually be re-unification in everything other than name. Kudos to Mr Varadkar approaching this difficult problem in a practical way.

Well I suppose it is how you look at it.  The EU have made their position clear and so far the British team have been totally non committal.  They haven't said yes or no or come up with any alternatives that we know of.  The EU negotiators keep pushing the UK to get on with it as the clock is certainly ticking.  They really do come across as being clueless so far.

 

As for "Not long to wait" well I am not sure about that either.  Probably four more years with the transition period?  That is the current thinking but nobody seems to know about that either.

the EU have made demands and the UK have rejected them, currently it is an show stopper, if the EU wants the negotiations to continue then they need to drop some of the outrageous demands they are making, the talks will go no further until they do

 

1 The ridiculous brexit bill - either justify with accounts or adjust it to a realistic figure 

2. Having an EU court operating in the UK after brexit, the UK have made their position on this very clear

 

I actually believe (and I have said it before) that the EU want the talks to fail and the UK to walk out without agreement thinking this will cause so much turmoil in the UK that the brexit process will be abandoned, well they need to think again, only after this happens will these talks actually progress

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Grouse    3,936
12 minutes ago, smedly said:

I can assure you 100% there will be no border checkpoints within the UK, the idea is quite frankly idiotic, there is only one border that needs to be managed - UK and the Irish republic, why on earth would the UK erect a border within the UK, border controls will be set up between the UK and EU, like I said above and now for the 3rd time, Irish citizens may retain the special status they have had for decades with the UK and it works both ways

 

The is no other way to manage a UK border with a foreign country, all the ideas and suggestions for alternatives being put forward so far are diversions and tactics, going forward a border will exist between the UK and the EU countries ...... period, no exceptions  

So where exactly do you envisage the border with France? In Calais? In Dover? Mid English Channel? 

 

Much ado about nothing.

 

We should have proper borders and register people coming in and going out. Give me 30mins and I will write the code for that. Then apply the existing rules and options open to us.

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Khun Han    3,995
29 minutes ago, smedly said:

I can assure you 100% there will be no border checkpoints within the UK, the idea is quite frankly idiotic, there is only one border that needs to be managed - UK and the Irish republic, why on earth would the UK erect a border within the UK, border controls will be set up between the UK and EU, like I said above and now for the 3rd time, Irish citizens may retain the special status they have had for decades with the UK and it works both ways

 

The is no other way to manage a UK border with a foreign country, all the ideas and suggestions for alternatives being put forward so far are diversions and tactics, going forward a border will exist between the UK and the EU countries ...... period, no exceptions  

 

I'm pretty sure that, before my wife got her British passport, she had to apply for a visa to travel to Northern Ireland, even though she had an ILR in her Thai passport. She certainly had to do that when we visited Gibraltar, and everyone's travel documents were checked before we got landside there even though the flight was direct from the mainland.

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robertson468    763
Posted (edited)

It's not beyond the wit of man.  Southern Irish Residents use their EU Passport in conjunction with a Special Southern Ireland ID Card, identifying them as Southern Irish, therefore are not subject to such stringent border checks.

Edited by robertson468

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smedly    14,945
20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So where exactly do you envisage the border with France? In Calais? In Dover? Mid English Channel? 

 

Much ado about nothing.

 

We should have proper borders and register people coming in and going out. Give me 30mins and I will write the code for that. Then apply the existing rules and options open to us.

Your post is almost sensible

 

Countries have had borders operating between them for a very long time, just like exists now between various counties - nobody will be allowed to travel unless they have proper permission to enter the country of their destination, how simple is that

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smedly    14,945
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm pretty sure that, before my wife got her British passport, she had to apply for a visa to travel to Northern Ireland, even though she had an ILR in her Thai passport. She certainly had to do that when we visited Gibraltar, and everyone's travel documents were checked before we got landside there even though the flight was direct from the mainland.

no she didn't for N.Ireland as it is part of the UK, Gibraltar is not the same.

Edited by smedly

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smedly    14,945
4 minutes ago, robertson468 said:

It's not beyond the wit of man.  Southern Irish Residents use their EU Passport in conjunction with a Special Southern Ireland ID Card, identifying them as Southern Irish, therefore are not subject to such stringent border checks.

It already states in their passport - Republic of Ireland

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smedly    14,945
24 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Quite right(ish).  The EU have stated their position over a Brexit payment and the British have yet to agree a figure.  And yes the EU have said that that issue needs to be agreed before the next stage.  No rocket science and both sides need to reach an agreement post haste.  The issue over the court is whether the high court in Britain is the final appeal court or whether to keep the European Court of Justice as the Highest.  Why is that a sticking point?  What hope is there for the serious matters if we cannot get past this?

 

And yes I do think the EU want Brexit to fail along with 48+% of Brits.  It damages the EU and the UK, there are no winners here.  As for turmoil in Britain, it is here now and growing every day!  We are a country divided and as the reality of what Brexit actually means the divisions are likely to get worse.

The EU have made demands which are both show stoppers or red lines, when the UK leaves the EU, there will be only one Justice system operating there and it will not belong to any foreign entity - the very idea is ridiculous 

 

As for the exit bill - the EU has made a demand, there are constant talks going on behind the scenes between huge numbers of people, they have obviously been unable to reach an agreed sum or they just haven't announced it yet, either way none of us have any idea what progress has been made, the EU have been very clever with their press releases - who is actually stalling is a matter of opinion, from what I have seen demands have been made and they have been rejected, one we know about and the UK has set out how they will manage EU citizens living in the UK which from what I have seen is more than fair - it is the EU that has rejected it demanding that the an EU court is involved in UK law - not going to happen, they in turn have been told that is a red line, and the other (Exit Bill) the EU is being very vague for obvious reasons, nobody in the UK would agree to 100m or even a 50m Euro exit bill

 

So who is stalling or making unreasonable demands - I know exactly who and I also believe as I said above they doing it on purpose. 

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dunroaming    3,234
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, smedly said:

The EU have made demands which are both show stoppers or red lines, when the UK leaves the EU, there will be only one Justice system operating there and it will not belong to any foreign entity - the very idea is ridiculous 

 

As for the exit bill - the EU has made a demand, there are constant talks going on behind the scenes between huge numbers of people, they have obviously been unable to reach an agreed sum or they just haven't announced it yet, either way none of us have any idea what progress has been made, the EU have been very clever with their press releases - who is actually stalling is a matter of opinion, from what I have seen demands have been made and they have been rejected, one we know about and the UK has set out how they will manage EU citizens living in the UK which from what I have seen is more than fair - it is the EU that has rejected it demanding that the an EU court is involved in UK law - not going to happen, they in turn have been told that is a red line, and the other (Exit Bill) the EU is being very vague for obvious reasons, nobody in the UK would agree to 100m or even a 50m Euro exit bill

 

So who is stalling or making unreasonable demands - I know exactly who and I also believe as I said above they doing it on purpose. 

Then why haven't the UK brexit team said that?  All they are saying is that "negotiations are going well".  The EU are saying "we are waiting for the UK to respond".  Even Gove has backtracked on the fishing rites, now saying that the EU countries will still have fishing rites in the UK waters after Brexit.  Nothing to come now until the autumn,  three quarters of a million British people off to Europe this week for their summer hols, unfortunately with less money in their pockets than they would have liked!

Edited by dunroaming
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Khun Han    3,995
39 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Then why haven't the UK brexit team said that?  All they are saying is that "negotiations are going well".  The EU are saying "we are waiting for the UK to respond".  Even Gove has backtracked on the fishing rites, now saying that the EU countries will still have fishing rites in the UK waters after Brexit.  Nothing to come now until the autumn,  three quarters of a million British people off to Europe this week for their summer hols, unfortunately with less money in their pockets than they would have liked!

 

Ah yes. Holiday spends. And therein lies the biggest hole in remain's argument: short-termism. We will really see poverty when we get the short straw from Europe when the next global recession hits, should we remain tied to the EU's coat tails.

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Richard W    377
2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm pretty sure that, before my wife got her British passport, she had to apply for a visa to travel to Northern Ireland, even though she had an ILR in her Thai passport.

Who do you recall issuing it?

2 hours ago, smedly said:

I can assure you 100% there will be no border checkpoints within the UK, the idea is quite frankly idiotic, there is only one border that needs to be managed - UK and the Irish republic, why on earth would the UK erect a border within the UK, border controls will be set up between the UK and EU, like I said above and now for the 3rd time, Irish citizens may retain the special status they have had for decades with the UK and it works both ways

 

The is no other way to manage a UK border with a foreign country, all the ideas and suggestions for alternatives being put forward so far are diversions and tactics, going forward a border will exist between the UK and the EU countries ...... period, no exceptions  

From 1939 to 1952 there were controls on sea crossings between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.  That did not sit well with Unionists.  Operation Gull compensates for the existing lack of border controls.

 

If the government does not amend the Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972, the Irish arriving in the UK without a visa will not have the current special status because they will not be "entitled to enter or remain in the United Kingdom by virtue of an enforceable EU right or any provision made under section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972".  If they stay for more than three months they will be breaking the law on overstaying, even though they will not "be in breach of the immigration laws" (BNA 1981 Section 50A(4)(d)), and they will not be allowed to work!

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dunroaming    3,234
52 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Ah yes. Holiday spends. And therein lies the biggest hole in remain's argument: short-termism. We will really see poverty when we get the short straw from Europe when the next global recession hits, should we remain tied to the EU's coat tails.

Well the pound is on the floor, the economy is stalling (growth prediction for the next quarter is down again), prices in the shops has risen but apart from that everything is hunky dory!  That is what I mean by not having as much money in their pockets.  Still maybe they have all packed their rose tinted glasses and everything will be glorious!

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rickudon    183

The Irish question will be settled anyway - after the next general election or the one after - by Northern Ireland opting to join the Irish Republic. Sheer matter of Demographics, Protestants now make up less than 50% of the population, Brexit may just make this happen in all but name a bit earlier, 87% of Northern Ireland farmer's incomes come from EU payments, do you want to subsidise them from the British Taxpayers pocket? 

 

The solution to all these problems is obvious ....

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7by7    6,284
4 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Well one solution being suggested is that all Northern Ireland residents be issued with Irish passports which would actually be re-unification in everything other than name............

Prior to 1st January 2005, anyone born on the island of Ireland was automatically entitled to Irish citizenship and thus an Irish passport. This still applies to people born before that date who have not yet claimed their Irish citizenship

 

Anyone born on the island of Ireland on or after that date is also entitled to Irish citizenship and an Irish passport if at least one of their parents was Irish, British or, if neither, had no time restriction on their residency in the RoI or UK.

 

As both the RoI and the UK allow dual nationality, neither government have any problem with this and there are many citizens of Northern Ireland who have, for one reason or another, both Irish and British nationality.

 

Allowing citizens of Northern Ireland dual Irish and British nationality has never effected the Province's status as part of the UK, and there is no reason why it should do so in the future.

 

As part of the 1999 Good Friday Agreement, the Irish government dropped their claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland with the nineteenth amendment to the constitution; which basically says that Northern Ireland will remain politically part of the UK and so not become part of the RoI unless and until the majority of people living in Northern Ireland wish it.

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BANGKOK 18 August 2017 15:51
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