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Ireland floats special EU-UK customs union as way to break Brexit logjam

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citybiker    303
Do you think it is ok for Romainians to travel to Ireland and beg on the streets


Begging instead of travelling to 'work' like their fellow Romanian's.

How many countries do they cross before getting to Ireland?

The UK has seen an influx of these Eastern European beggars on the streets, at road junction, traffic lights begging, if citizens don't encourage them they'll move to where it's more lucrative.

Hopefully to another Country, like they're own.



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7by7    6,284
36 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

No, my figures are fine wrt the numbers taken in by Germany. And It's my understanding that the UK was expected to take about 300,000 of them if we remained in the EU.

 

Whatever happens to to these migrants once they are forced upon member states is anyone's guess, and it is bound to be a huge mess and burden for the receiving countries. But the point is that your assertion that the EU doesn't interfere with it's member states' immigration policies is plain wrong.

 As I said, whilst the EU may have set quotas, once in the host country the refugees/migrants will have to satisfy that country's asylum rules, set by that country's government not the EU, in order to be allowed to stay.

 

What don't you understand about that?

 

BTW, can you provide a source for you German figures, the largest figure I can find is less than three quarters of your figure.

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smedly    14,945
29 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

No; but if they are doing so then they are not exercising a treaty right and so breaking the law.

There is no "if" about it, they are on the streets across the UK and Ireland ................................. begging amongst other things

 

The German EU is just fine - right ?, well it is for Germany

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Khun Han    3,995
8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 As I said, whilst the EU may have set quotas, once in the host country the refugees/migrants will have to satisfy that country's asylum rules, set by that country's government not the EU, in order to be allowed to stay.

 

What don't you understand about that?

 

BTW, can you provide a source for you German figures, the largest figure I can find is less than three quarters of your figure.

 

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here other than trying to win an argument. you stated that the EU doesn't interfere with the immigration processes of member states. I pointed out that it does, and you countered that it doesn't interfere with the processing of migrants once they are in a member country. But that's irrelevent because the EU has interfered hugely in forcing member states to accept the migrants in the first place. And, from a practical point of view, once the migrants are there, even the ones who can be 'weeded out' will stay for years and years on appeal all the way to the EU courts. All this for countries that explicitily didn't want them in the first place, but were forced to take them by the EU in order to help Germany out from a problem of it's own creation.

 

The figure for Germany's intake being claimed was actually 1.1 million, now corrected to 890,000, not that it changes the core point that the EU is interfering in the immigration processes of member states:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/09/30/germany-said-it-took-in-more-than-1-million-refugees-last-year-but-it-didnt/?utm_term=.fa1ffac71608

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21 hours ago, smedly said:

OMG, try to understand that when you talk about the UK it means , England Scotland Wales and N Ireland, it doesn't matter that there is water between them, it is still the UK, you mention the word "mainland" the word has no relevance to this topic, I am not going to comment again on this, - if you can't understand what the "UK" means then I am not going to keep explaining it to you, I have taken the time to answer your questions but you are now seemingly trolling and baiting because you refuse to get the obvious

 

One thing is for sure - there will be a border between the UK and republic of Ireland, how it is managed is not quite so clear but it will be there once the UK leaves the EU, well in fact it has been there all along, just like all 27 EU countries - they all have borders

I am not trolling or baiting you. I don't disagree with 99% of what you say. I know exactly what the UK is thanks.

I completely agree about the eastern Europeans and the lack of reciprocity. I am not a "Remoaner" and was delighted with the result of the referendum and voted Leave.

As you say there are borders inside the Schengen area now.

I also have a feeling that a north/south Irish land border is unavoidable, but all the possibilities to avoid it have to be examined. I just worry we might go back to the hostilities we had before it was removed in the April 1998 Good Friday Agreement.

 

Basically you don't seem to think my suggestion is workable. I have just tried to explain why I think it could.

 

Okay!

 

I have tried to stick to the topic, which is about the border in Ireland, not England, Scotland and Wales and immigration implications of Brexit to the whole UK.

 

Best we leave it at that.

:wai:

 

 

Edited by George FmplesdaCosteedback

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14 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Not all of them, but a significant minority voted through ignorance rather than facts.

 

Ex Colonial? The UK's immigration rules apply to all non EEA nationals; whether their country of origin was once part of the British Empire or not. Unless, as said previously, they are qualifying family members of an EEA national.

 

Yes, it is true that there are approximately 3 million EEA nationals exercising a treaty right in the UK; most of whom are workers or the family of workers and so contributing to the UK economy.

 

Unlike the majority of the approx. 1.5 million British nationals exercising a treaty right in other member states, who are retired.

 

All of which is, of course, due to the Freedom of Movement Directive; but  how much do you actually know about that? 

 

I say 'EEA' rather than 'EU' when talking about the directive; do you know why? (Although to be totally accurate I should say the EEA and Switzerland!)

 

For an EEA national to live in another member state for more than three months they must be exercising a treaty right; do you know what they are?

 

As you are someone who believes there are internal borders and immigration control within the UK; I doubt it. It is you who should do more research.

 

In that research you will find that whilst Polish nationals are the largest group of EEA nationals exercising FoM treaty rights in the UK, you may be surprised to discover where the second largest group are from; the Republic of Ireland.

 

You should be careful not to fall off that "High Horse" you are riding.

You need to look back. The Irish Republic and the "Colonial" immigration was way before the "FoM" was introduces by the EU for EEA members. The EEA indeed does include the Swiss, but you have to be in the EU or Efta to apply. The framework of all the European Treaties are complex, but don't be fooled, it is all part of the same con trick.

I know how many eastern Europeans live where and how many. Do you live near one of their ghettos in England, France, Sweden etc?

 

What is wrong with visas and work permits?

 

This is after all a Thai forum, and we all need visas and permits to stay here.

 

I think your saddle is loose.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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smedly    14,945
7 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I am not trolling or baiting you. I don't disagree with 99% of what you say. I know exactly what the UK is thanks.

I completely agree about the eastern Europeans and the lack of reciprocity. I am not a "Remoaner" and was delighted with the result of the referendum and voted Leave.

As you say there are borders inside the Schengen area now.

I also have a feeling that a north/south Irish land border is unavoidable, but all the possibilities to avoid it have to be examined. I just worry we might go back to the hostilities we had before it was removed in the April 1998 Good Friday Agreement.

 

Basically you don't seem to think my suggestion is workable. I have just tried to explain why I think it could.

 

Okay!

 

I have tried to stick to the topic, which is about the border in Ireland, not England, Scotland and Wales and immigration implications of Brexit to the whole UK.

 

Best we leave it at that.

:wai:

 

 

fair enough

 

I don't think the any of this will affect the GFA, nobody has a stomach for returning to violence.

 

I think freedom of movement will remain between the UK and Ireland for UK and Irish citizens and also all other aspects of the special relationship that has been active longer than any EU treaties, I also think a free trade agreement will exist regardless of what is agreed at the brexit talks which may or may not go far enough to satisfy the UK/Ireland relationship, it could be managed by giving traders a special permit provided they meet a certain criteria and qualify, I blame the EU negotiation team for making it an issue if the first place - I don't believe it is an issue and never will be.

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Grouse    3,936
21 hours ago, Grouse said:

300,000? Back up info please!

No response so we'll take it as disinformation 😉😉

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dick dasterdly    3,326
On 8/12/2017 at 4:30 AM, smedly said:

tell you what, jump on a plane from the UK and fly to Poland or Romania, try to sign on to their benefit system, try to get free healthcare then report back here as to how you got on, oh yes the EU has freedom of movement right ? ....right

 

sorry but if you don't have a job then fkc off, you are not entitled to benefits fkc off oh and we are leaving the EU so fkc off back to Romania or Poland 

 

 

but please feel welcome in the UK if you have a job and are willing to contribute to the UK economy oh and soon to be world economy 

 

PS nothing against Polish people or Romianin - any nationality from the EU 27 should be ecicted if they don't have work

I agree with some of your post, but NO to "please feel welcome in the UK if you have a job".

 

Offered a job as a result of a skills shortage - fair enough (although I'd be looking to the UK govt. as to how this skills shortage was allowed to develop.....).

 

Those on minimum wage (if that...) - they're just keeping wages low for those at the bottom, and those further up the chain.  And whilst this makes employees cheaper - there's not a tax gain, as UK workers would have been doing those jobs and paying the tax.

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16 hours ago, smedly said:

fair enough

 

I don't think the any of this will affect the GFA, nobody has a stomach for returning to violence.

 

I think freedom of movement will remain between the UK and Ireland for UK and Irish citizens and also all other aspects of the special relationship that has been active longer than any EU treaties, I also think a free trade agreement will exist regardless of what is agreed at the brexit talks which may or may not go far enough to satisfy the UK/Ireland relationship, it could be managed by giving traders a special permit provided they meet a certain criteria and qualify, I blame the EU negotiation team for making it an issue if the first place - I don't believe it is an issue and never will be.

I echo your thoughts, I hope it works out.

G

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7by7    6,284
On ‎12‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:29 PM, Khun Han said:

 

<snip>

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here other than trying to win an argument

The point I'm trying, and in your case obviously failing, to make is that each member state has it's own rules for non EEA immigration; including asylum seekers.

 

 

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7by7    6,284
On ‎12‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 10:01 PM, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

You should be careful not to fall off that "High Horse" you are riding.

You need to look back. The Irish Republic and the "Colonial" immigration was way before the "FoM" was introduces by the EU for EEA members. The EEA indeed does include the Swiss, but you have to be in the EU or Efta to apply. The framework of all the European Treaties are complex, but don't be fooled, it is all part of the same con trick.

I know how many eastern Europeans live where and how many. Do you live near one of their ghettos in England, France, Sweden etc?

 

What is wrong with visas and work permits?

 

This is after all a Thai forum, and we all need visas and permits to stay here.

 

I think your saddle is loose.

 

What are you wittering on about now?

 

You brought up what you called 'ex colonial immigration; I merely corrected your misapprehension over the UK's immigration rules. Then did the same with your misapprehension on the workings of the FoM directive.

 

But then your response to me and previous ones to Smedley when he corrected your misapprehension about there being a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, indicate you obviously don't care for being corrected!

 

There is nothing wrong with visas and work permits; but the UK currently has two international agreements where neither are required. One with the EU, which covers EEA members and Switzerland as well, and a much older one with the Republic of Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Of course, British citizens benefit from these as well. 

 

The question is what will happen to both, especially the latter, post Brexit.

 

If you want an intelligent discussion on this; fine. But if instead you again merely resort to petty insults, I wont bother responding.

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Khun Han    3,995
1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

The point I'm trying, and in your case obviously failing, to make is that each member state has it's own rules for non EEA immigration; including asylum seekers.

 

 

 

Nope. The point you were originally trying to make was that the EU doesn't interfere in member countries' immigration policies, and I pointed out why you were wrong. Your subsequent point about the EU not interfering in member countries' asylum processing procedures was a backtrack. You have proven me wrong a few times in previous debates, and I have been happy to learn and concede. It seems it's all about winning for you. And my post that you partially quoted was not overly long. No need to butcher it.

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Khun Han    3,995
1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

What are you wittering on about now?

 

You brought up what you called 'ex colonial immigration; I merely corrected your misapprehension over the UK's immigration rules. Then did the same with your misapprehension on the workings of the FoM directive.

 

But then your response to me and previous ones to Smedley when he corrected your misapprehension about there being a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, indicate you obviously don't care for being corrected!

 

There is nothing wrong with visas and work permits; but the UK currently has two international agreements where neither are required. One with the EU, which covers EEA members and Switzerland as well, and a much older one with the Republic of Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Of course, British citizens benefit from these as well. 

 

The question is what will happen to both, especially the latter, post Brexit.

 

If you want an intelligent discussion on this; fine. But if instead you again merely resort to petty insults, I wont bother responding.

 

Did you notice that George and Smedly resolved their differences amicably? Your debates nearly always descend into acrimony.

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smedly    14,945

The are a couple of points worth mentioning here 

 

- The EU played no part in the Good Friday Agreement, it really is none of their business and should never have been mentioned at all.

 

- The UK and Ireland have had a special arrangement long before any EU treaties were signed

 

- It is up to the republic of Ireland and the UK to determine how the borders and relationship are handled once the UK leaves the EU, the only part the EU will play is whether they allow a member state to have a special arrangement with a none EU country outside of existing EU treaties, it is in fact the EU that could stand in the way of Ireland reaching any sort of agreement with the UK.

 

- Future EU Customs and Trade agreements with the UK could determine any future relationship with the UK and the ROI so it is actually up to the EU to make sure that it works out of the box or they allow the Republic of Ireland and the UK to have a separate arrangement - they could in fact block it, so the ball is firmly in their court as to what they will allow within EU rules, it certainly would be no fault of the UK or ROI if the EU decides against it.

 

All of this discussion is mute because it is up to the EU to decide if Ireland and the UK can continue with their special relationship once the UK has left the EU, it is up to the ROI to get approval from the EU dictators, the UK will not be blocking anything, so lets put this issue right were it belongs.

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BANGKOK 18 August 2017 16:03
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